Correctable timing issue?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

We use shot clock and the game clock never stops on a made basket. The most an official could take off would be 4.9 seconds as that would be the only count that would give definate knowledge.

definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.

True, but how many of us start counting the second the ball goes through? I don't, not until they pick up the ball, so while I know more thatn 4.9 may have run off, I'm only taking 4.9 if that is what I got to.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.

OHBBREF, I chastised you after your very first post on this forum because you wrote a post that was critical of and made fun of the rules knowledge of some other officials in your area. I implied you that you should be careful about laughing at them because your rules knowledge isn't as strong as you think. I don't mean that comment to be nasty, but I believe that it would serve you well to take a hard look at yourself before pointing the finger at others. What you have written above is not true and very poor advice.

Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.

Some more carefree officials might count in their heads and claim that is okay, but the fact that there is no way to verify this count leaves them open to severe criticism and makes it difficult for an assignor to back them. I wouldn't advise anyone to do it that way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.

Reference, please.

Because if I'm counting (even unofficially), I'm using that count.

Play: A inbounds into the FC with 20 seconds remaining. A1 holds the ball near the division line for the last shot, with no defensive pressure. Official keeps a mental count. After 6 seconds, someone shouts, "the clock didn't start." Official notices the clock is still at 20 and blows the whistle.

You wouldn't set it to 14?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Reference, please.

I just gave it 5-10-2.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because if I'm counting (even unofficially), I'm using that count.

Good luck with that. In my opinion, you are asking for trouble. Someone is going to challenge that you really had a mental count.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Play: A inbounds into the FC with 20 seconds remaining. A1 holds the ball near the division line for the last shot, with no defensive pressure. Official keeps a mental count. After 6 seconds, someone shouts, "the clock didn't start." Official notices the clock is still at 20 and blows the whistle.

You wouldn't set it to 14?

Nope. I wouldn't move the clock without a visible count. If I saw that the clock wasn't running and didn't wish to immediately stop play, I'd start a visible count.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Because if I'm counting, even unofficially, I'm using that count.

I always keep a mental count when the timer doesn't start the clock right away, i.e., after a throw in, or a missed foul shot, in case he never starts it; and with a few seconds left in a period. I always thought that I could use this as definite knowledge if needed. We are allowed to keep a mental count for three seconds. I hope that you and Nevadaref get this straightened out. Inquiring minds want to know.

[sseltser]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.

I have 2 issues with this.

First, 5-10-2 stipulates "an official's count OR other official information." What else is other official information? I can't think of anything else (except for the few states, including mine, that use a shot clock -- and supposing that the 2 aren't wired to start and stop simultaneously).

Second, I didn't think of this the first time I heard you say this, but how do you explain this: With 10 seconds left, A throws in into the front court. The official begins visibly counting (per your recommendation) in case of a timing error. The official judges a defender to not be closely guarding, but its debatable. When the count gets to five, how do you explain to B HC that there isn't a violation? The purpose of the visible count is to provide information, and typically, it's for situations such as these.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I have 2 issues with this.

First, 5-10-2 stipulates "an official's count OR other official information." What else is other official information? I can't think of anything else (except for the few states, including mine, that use a shot clock -- and supposing that the 2 aren't wired to start and stop simultaneously).

The Referee is allowed to check with the timer and obtain information from that person. Perhaps the clock switch malfunctioned so he looked at his watch until play was stopped.

Originally Posted by sseltser

Second, I didn't think of this the first time I heard you say this, but how do you explain this: With 10 seconds left, A throws in into the front court. The official begins visibly counting (per your recommendation) in case of a timing error. The official judges a defender to not be closely guarding, but its debatable. When the count gets to five, how do you explain to B HC that there isn't a violation? The purpose of the visible count is to provide information, and typically, it's for situations such as these.

Use a different arm movement than your normal counting. Not that hard. Also, I would think that if a scoring play isn't in progress an official who has knowledge that the clock isn't running properly would sound the whistle and stop play. That should take care of most situations in which there isn't a 5-second count.

The only two cases in which I would count instead of stopping play are a quick scoring play occurring immediately upon a restart or when there is very little time remaining in a quarter or extra period and continuous playing action is of paramount importance. For example, on a throw-in with six seconds left and a team having to go the length of the court to score, I would rather just count out the six seconds than break the action.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Use a different arm movement than your normal counting. Not that hard.

Where is that mentioned in the book?

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Use a different arm movement than your normal counting. Not that hard.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Where is that mentioned in the book?

It's not. I just gave it as a suggestion, if he wished to distinguish his count. It is highly likely that this is unnecessary as the times when it is best to let the action continue despite knowledge that the clock isn't properly running occur in great minority when compared to those situations when it is best to simply halt play and deal with the clock right away.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by sseltser

First, 5-10-2 stipulates "an official's count OR other official information."

I agree -- and I don't think it need only be any type of rules-based count (e.g., 5-second closely guarded, etc.)

[Kelvin green]

I' m with Bob on this one.

Nothing says you need a count going nothing says it needs to a situation where a count is going.

If I know the clock has not started. I will count to a point where I can stop the play and correct it... I am sure as heck not going to blow a fast break because clcok did not start.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

With all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.

Good point, not just in this situation, but for everything we do. I had a parent tape a last second "heave" on his cell phone a few weekends ago. Luckily, this time, I was right calling off the shot. Tough call. I could have just as easily been wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point, not just in this situation, but for everything we do. I had a parent tape a last second "heave" on his cell phone a few weekends ago. Luckily, this time, I was right calling off the shot. Tough call. I could have just as easily been wrong.

I have never seen a video tape of a non-TV high school game that showed the clock and the action at the same time. You only have to worry about this if you have too much to worry about.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have never seen a video tape of a non-TV high school game that showed the clock and the action at the same time. You only have to worry about this if you have too much to worry about.

Remember, it's not the clock that ends the period in NFHS games, it's the horn, and this cellphone had sound, and we heard the horn clearly before the ball was released.