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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 02:13pm
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Correctable timing issue?

Team B scores a basket with 39 seconds on the clock towards the end of the 2nd quarter. Team A waits a few seconds before picking up the ball, and waits another few seconds before passing it in, knowing that if they inbound the ball with under 35 seconds they can hold for the last shot. Clock operators stop the clock on the made basket and start it again on the inbounds. Coach A and A1 (starting point guard, who is on the bench) notice right away and inform the officials. Is this correctable? or does team B (the home team, in this case) have a chance at another possession?
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 02:30pm
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Originally Posted by Y2Koach View Post
Team B scores a basket with 39 seconds on the clock towards the end of the 2nd quarter. Team A waits a few seconds before picking up the ball, and waits another few seconds before passing it in, knowing that if they inbound the ball with under 35 seconds they can hold for the last shot. Clock operators stop the clock on the made basket and start it again on the inbounds. Coach A and A1 (starting point guard, who is on the bench) notice right away and inform the officials. Is this correctable? or does team B (the home team, in this case) have a chance at another possession?
In a HS game the clock shouldn't stop, but NFHS rules also do not provide for a shot clock.

The timing error is correctable, but the official would have to have a count of some kind, such as the throw-in count.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 03:17pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
In a HS game the clock shouldn't stop, but NFHS rules also do not provide for a shot clock.
Might be California and/or Texas some leagues have shot clocks there I think
but the clock wouldn't stop after made basket in the last minute of any quarter but the fourth I believe.

So in this case this is a timers mistake and the official is to correct the time on the clock.

prior to all of this the official could start a count, you may determine it is at the disposal and not let them manipulate the time to gain an advantage.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 03:33pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
Might be California and/or Texas some leagues have shot clocks there I think
Thanks, but I'm aware that a few states employ a shot clock at the HS level. I can even tell you which ones.

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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
but the clock wouldn't stop after made basket in the last minute of any quarter but the fourth I believe.
That is one modification that I have not heard of being used at the HS level.

Anyone know of any states that do this?
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 03:50pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Thanks, but I'm aware that a few states employ a shot clock at the HS level. I can even tell you which ones.


That is one modification that I have not heard of being used at the HS level.

Anyone know of any states that do this?
I'm not sure that would be the case, it may be no stopping of the clock in any quarter, but if there is stoppage after a made basket it would not be in the second quarter.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 03:51pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
I'm not sure that would be the case, it may be no stopping of the clock in any quarter, but if there is stoppage after a made basket it would not be in the second quarter.
It could be.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 04:22pm
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We use shot clock and the game clock never stops on a made basket. The most an official could take off would be 4.9 seconds as that would be the only count that would give definate knowledge.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 04:27pm
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Originally Posted by w_sohl View Post
We use shot clock and the game clock never stops on a made basket. The most an official could take off would be 4.9 seconds as that would be the only count that would give definate knowledge.
definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 04:29pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.
True, but how many of us start counting the second the ball goes through? I don't, not until they pick up the ball, so while I know more thatn 4.9 may have run off, I'm only taking 4.9 if that is what I got to.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 05:45pm
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Originally Posted by OHBBREF View Post
definate knowledge does not require a visible count. does not require that you have any other count going , you can just count in your head, so if you were willing to let the guy stand their for ten seconds and not pick up the ball and you did not start a five second count for some reason - if you counted in your head to 6 or 8 or 10. you would have definate knowledge that 10 seconds ran of the colock and you could take that amount of time off the clock.
OHBBREF, I chastised you after your very first post on this forum because you wrote a post that was critical of and made fun of the rules knowledge of some other officials in your area. I implied you that you should be careful about laughing at them because your rules knowledge isn't as strong as you think. I don't mean that comment to be nasty, but I believe that it would serve you well to take a hard look at yourself before pointing the finger at others. What you have written above is not true and very poor advice.

Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.

Some more carefree officials might count in their heads and claim that is okay, but the fact that there is no way to verify this count leaves them open to severe criticism and makes it difficult for an assignor to back them. I wouldn't advise anyone to do it that way.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 05:55pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.
Reference, please.

Because if I'm counting (even unofficially), I'm using that count.

Play: A inbounds into the FC with 20 seconds remaining. A1 holds the ball near the division line for the last shot, with no defensive pressure. Official keeps a mental count. After 6 seconds, someone shouts, "the clock didn't start." Official notices the clock is still at 20 and blows the whistle.

You wouldn't set it to 14?
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 06:00pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Reference, please.
I just gave it 5-10-2.

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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Because if I'm counting (even unofficially), I'm using that count.
Good luck with that. In my opinion, you are asking for trouble. Someone is going to challenge that you really had a mental count.

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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Play: A inbounds into the FC with 20 seconds remaining. A1 holds the ball near the division line for the last shot, with no defensive pressure. Official keeps a mental count. After 6 seconds, someone shouts, "the clock didn't start." Official notices the clock is still at 20 and blows the whistle.

You wouldn't set it to 14?
Nope. I wouldn't move the clock without a visible count. If I saw that the clock wasn't running and didn't wish to immediately stop play, I'd start a visible count.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 06:19pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Counting in your head is not one of the official counts referred to 5-10-2 and therefore does NOT constitute definite knowledge. The counts needs to be visible and with all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.
I have 2 issues with this.

First, 5-10-2 stipulates "an official's count OR other official information." What else is other official information? I can't think of anything else (except for the few states, including mine, that use a shot clock -- and supposing that the 2 aren't wired to start and stop simultaneously).

Second, I didn't think of this the first time I heard you say this, but how do you explain this: With 10 seconds left, A throws in into the front court. The official begins visibly counting (per your recommendation) in case of a timing error. The official judges a defender to not be closely guarding, but its debatable. When the count gets to five, how do you explain to B HC that there isn't a violation? The purpose of the visible count is to provide information, and typically, it's for situations such as these.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 07:03pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Because if I'm counting, even unofficially, I'm using that count.
I always keep a mental count when the timer doesn't start the clock right away, i.e., after a throw in, or a missed foul shot, in case he never starts it; and with a few seconds left in a period. I always thought that I could use this as definite knowledge if needed. We are allowed to keep a mental count for three seconds. I hope that you and Nevadaref get this straightened out. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 07:08pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
With all of the video that is being captured of games these days, you had darn well better be able to have the tape back you up if you make a timing correction.
Good point, not just in this situation, but for everything we do. I had a parent tape a last second "heave" on his cell phone a few weekends ago. Luckily, this time, I was right calling off the shot. Tough call. I could have just as easily been wrong.
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