timing issue...

[TerpZebra]

Pass by A1 to A2.
B1 commits pass interference
B2 intercepts the pass and is tackled inbounds.
Team A accepts the penalty.
Mark off 15 yards, automatic first down.
When do you start the clock?

Please give more answer than just "on the ready" or "on the snap."

thoughts?

[SouthGARef]

On the snap.

What did the clock stop for? A change of possession.
When would the clock have started if not for the penalty? On the snap.

[TerpZebra]

SouthGARef: that was my thinking also. and that's what i told the headcoach on my sideline last friday night. and then my whitehat started the clock on the ready...i immediately killed the clock to go and talk about it.

I thought it was pretty straightforward.

People in my association were saying that the penalty killed the clock, not the change of possession. And I brought up the fact that if Team A declines the penalty (for some unknown reason), then you would start the clock on the snap.

My whitehat's exact words on friday were, "completed pass inbounds, and A is keeping possession, therefore on the ready"

I still disagree with that.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by TerpZebra
Pass by A1 to A2.
B1 commits pass interference
B2 intercepts the pass and is tackled inbounds.
Team A accepts the penalty.
Mark off 15 yards, automatic first down.
When do you start the clock?

Please give more answer than just "on the ready" or "on the snap."

thoughts?

Before the 3-minute warning: on the ready.
After the 3-minute warning: on the snap.

[Theisey]

Clock stopped to deal with the penalty after which, team-A retains the ball. Start it on the ready. Had the pass been incomplete, then it would be on the snap.

As you say, if team-A declined the foul, it would be team-Bs ball and since they are awarded a new series, the clock would be on the snap.. That did NOT happen and has no bearing on what happens when accepting this foul.

[MJT]

Originally posted by TerpZebra
SouthGARef: that was my thinking also. and that's what i told the headcoach on my sideline last friday night. and then my whitehat started the clock on the ready...i immediately killed the clock to go and talk about it.

I thought it was pretty straightforward.

People in my association were saying that the penalty killed the clock, not the change of possession. And I brought up the fact that if Team A declines the penalty (for some unknown reason), then you would start the clock on the snap.

My whitehat's exact words on friday were, "completed pass inbounds, and A is keeping possession, therefore on the ready"

I still disagree with that.

You are correct! How can they argue the fact that if there was not a penalty, the COP would cause the clock to start on the snap. That is as straight forward as it gets. Your white hat is being stubborn. Will he listen to your reasoning?

[SouthGARef]

Still say on the snap.

The way I've always been taught with clock issues is that you act as if no penalty occured on the play--no matter what the result is of the penalty.

[jack015]

The clock should start on the ready. The fact that there was a change of possession is irrelevant. If you look at the list of things that cause the clock to start on the snap in rule 3, "change of possession" is not one of them. If B is awarded a new series, then the clock will start on the snap. In this play, B was not awarded a new series, therefore, start the clock on the ready. From an old thread on this board, if B intercepts, B fumbles on the runback, and A recovers inbounds, 1st and 10 for A - start the clock on the ready. Here there are 2 change of possessions and we still start on the ready.

[kdf5]

3-4-2...The clock starts on the ready...

a. For an official's time out, except if B's awarded a new series or either team's awarded a new series following a legal kick.

b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either a. or b:

3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.

If an interception stops the clock without the penalty, then rule 3-4-2 says you start on the snap.

[MJT]

Originally posted by jack015
The clock should start on the ready. The fact that there was a change of possession is irrelevant. If you look at the list of things that cause the clock to start on the snap in rule 3, "change of possession" is not one of them. If B is awarded a new series, then the clock will start on the snap. In this play, B was not awarded a new series, therefore, start the clock on the ready. From an old thread on this board, if B intercepts, B fumbles on the runback, and A recovers inbounds, 1st and 10 for A - start the clock on the ready. Here there are 2 change of possessions and we still start on the ready.

But jack015, the reason, in your fumble example above, the clock did not stop at the end of the play was that A was in possession at the end of the play. It doesn't matter how many times possssion changed during the play, A started with it and A ended with it, so the clock keeps going if they are inbounds.
The point on the post is, since B was in possession at the end of the down, the clock was stopped for the COP. That is what stopped the clock, not the penalty, so no matter what, the clock will start on the snap.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Federation and NCAA rules differ on this question (surprise...surprise)!

FEDERATION: (jack015 hit the nail on the head) The clock will start on the READY. Remember that the clock starts on the snap NOT for a change of possession, but when B is awarded a new series. Was B awarded a new series? No, because NF 5-1-2 says that a new series is awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down. So, as long as the penalty is accepted, B will not be awarded a new series. Hence, the only thing that stopped the clock was indeed the foul.

NCAA: The clock will start on the SNAP. NCAA concurs that the clock starts on the snap when B is awarded a new series. However, unlike Fed, NCAA rules award a new series to the team in possession if a change of possession occurs during the down. So since there was a change of possession, B is awarded a new series and that's why the clock stopped. Hence, it will begin again on the SNAP. This is the fundamental difference between NCAA and Fed rules.

mcrowder and theisey...keep me honest on the NCAA rule here.

[Edited by Bob M. on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 04:12 PM]

[kdf5]

Originally posted by MJT

But jack015, the reason, in your fumble example above, the clock did not stop at the end of the play was that A was in possession at the end of the play. It doesn't matter how many times possssion changed during the play, A started with it and A ended with it, so the clock keeps going if they are inbounds.
The point on the post is, since B was in possession at the end of the down, the clock was stopped for the COP. That is what stopped the clock, not the penalty, so no matter what, the clock will start on the snap.

I agree 100% with MJT. You always stop the clock after a penalty. But it's the action that caused the down to end (the end of the play after the interception) that determines ready or snap because you always stop the clock after an INT.

In the double fumble scenario, the fact that A ended up with the ball means that the action that stopped the clock was the end of the run, still in A's possession. Therefore you start the clock on the ready just like you would do if A never fumbled.

The change of possession that jack015 claims is missing in the rules is covered in 3-4-2-3b.

[Theisey]

That is correct BobM. Under NCAA rules we stopped the clock to award a 1st down for team-B. Then we say, Opps because their first down is canceled because of the penalty. Team-A retains the ball. However, the clock for team-A is on the SNAP.

NF doesn't handle it that way. They would start if on the RFP.

Just another one of those (how many again?) rules differences.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by kdf5
3-4-2...The clock starts on the ready...

a. For an official's time out, except if B's awarded a new series or either team's awarded a new series following a legal kick.

b. Because the ball has become dead following any foul provided in either a. or b:

3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped.

If an interception stops the clock without the penalty, then rule 3-4-2 says you start on the snap.

The action that caused the down to end was the the player being tackled inbounds. This does not cause the clock to stop. So start it on the ready!

[Forksref]

Agree with Andrew. Had the player gone OOB, the clock would have stopped for that. But, the player was tackled inbounds and thus, although the clock had to be stopped to handle the foul, we consider the inbounds tackle to cause the clock to restart on the ready. No need to complicate matters.