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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:53pm
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Jump Ball foul?

If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:05pm
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Dead Ball Contact May Be Deemed A Technical Foul ...

You will probably forget the arrow here. Dead ball contact, if intentional, or flagrant, will be penalized with a technical foul. Intentional technical: Any player shoots two, his team gets it at division line, opposite table. Flagrant technical: Same as intentional, except player is ejected.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:36pm.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:20pm
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Wow, I had this exact situation in a girl's game last week!

I am in the habit of specifically telling the girls at the Captain's meeting (like they're listening), when the whistle blows, stop wrestling.

Late in third period, scrum on floor. TWEEEEET! My partner and I move in. Whack, up comes an elbow and down goes one of the girls in tears as she got nailed by an elbow right in the face. TWEEET! I T'd her up (right in front of one of the V officials /trainers who was watching).

I later asked the V official what he thought of the call. He asked if I thought it was intentional or flagrant? He said I might have been a little quick. I said I simply had to get something and went with the T. Good teaching point for me.

We administered the shots and awarded the ball as BillyMac said.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
You will probably forget the arrow here. Dead ball contact, if intentional, or flagrant, will be penalized with a technical foul. Intentional: Any player shoots two, his team gets it at division line, opposite table. Flagrant: Same as intentional, except player is ejected.
You must clarify these would be Intentional Technical Fouls or Flagrant Technical Fouls (if called in this situation). Because they are Technical Fouls they go to opposite table at the division line. Regular Intentional and Flagrant Fouls are spot fouls with two shots and the ball. You might confuse someone the way you worded your answer.

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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
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Thank you for your replies.
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Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summdawg76 View Post
If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance

summdawg76:

Breakdown the play:

1) Prior to the held ball the ball is live and in play.

2) A held ball occurs between A1 and B1.

3) The held ball causes the ball to become dead.

4) During the dead ball period after the held ball and before the AP Throw-in starts B1 contacts A1 in an unsportsmanlike manner. A contact foul during a dead ball period is a technical foul (there are a some exceptions but your situation is not one of them). Therefore B1's foul is a TF.

5a) NFHS Rules: Team A will be awarded two free throws as part of the penalty for B1's technical foul and then is awarded a throw-in at the division opposite the Scorer's Table. The AP Arrow is not reversed, because Team A's throw-in is part of the TF penalty and not an AP Throw-in.

5b) NCAA Men's: If the officials judge B1's actions to be intentional or flagrant TF and I would consider B1's actions to be at least an intentional TF. Then after the free throws for B1's TF Team A will receive a throw-in a part of the TF penalty a the division line. If B1s' actions are not considered intentional or flagrant then play is resumed at the Point-of-Interuption (POI) which is an AP Throw-in.

5c) NCAA Women's: If B1's actions are judged by the officials to be flagrant then Team A will receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of B1's TF for a throw-in after the TF free throws; this throw-in is part of the TF penalty. If B1's actions are not judged to be flagrant then play is resumed at the POI which is an AP Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 02:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
summdawg76:

Breakdown the play:

1) Prior to the held ball the ball is live and in play.

2) A held ball occurs between A1 and B1.

3) The held ball causes the ball to become dead.

4) During the dead ball period after the held ball and before the AP Throw-in starts B1 contacts A1 in an unsportsmanlike manner. A contact foul during a dead ball period is a technical foul (there are a some exceptions but your situation is not one of them). Therefore B1's foul is a TF.

5a) NFHS Rules: Team A will be awarded two free throws as part of the penalty for B1's technical foul and then is awarded a throw-in at the division opposite the Scorer's Table. The AP Arrow is not reversed, because Team A's throw-in is part of the TF penalty and not an AP Throw-in.

5b) NCAA Men's: If the officials judge B1's actions to be intentional or flagrant TF and I would consider B1's actions to be at least an intentional TF. Then after the free throws for B1's TF Team A will receive a throw-in a part of the TF penalty a the division line. If B1s' actions are not considered intentional or flagrant then play is resumed at the Point-of-Interuption (POI) which is an AP Throw-in.

5c) NCAA Women's: If B1's actions are judged by the officials to be flagrant then Team A will receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of B1's TF for a throw-in after the TF free throws; this throw-in is part of the TF penalty. If B1's actions are not judged to be flagrant then play is resumed at the POI which is an AP Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.
With no technical foul, right?
I can't see how B1 could be charged with anything other than an intentional technical or a flagrant technical because this was a contact situation during a dead ball.
I find your reference to the POI confusing. There is no POI unless a T is called.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:43am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
With no technical foul, right?
I can't see how B1 could be charged with anything other than an intentional technical or a flagrant technical because this was a contact situation during a dead ball.
I find your reference to the POI confusing. There is no POI unless a T is called.

NevadaRef:

B1's dead ball foul already meets the definition of a TF. The only thing the officials must decide is if it is intentional or flagrant or neither.


The POI reference is if the TF is neither intetional nor flagrant, i.e., instead of a dead ball contact foul B1 decides to yell at you in an unsportsmanlike conduc manner such: "Are you blind! How could you call a held ball. He fouled me." I agree with you that in the original situation it has to be either an intentional of flagrant foul. Of course in NFHS and NCAA Women's an intentional TF really doesn't exist anymore because of the penalties are the same as an TF that is neither intentional or flagrant.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NevadaRef:

B1's dead ball foul already meets the definition of a TF. The only thing the officials must decide is if it is intentional or flagrant or neither.


The POI reference is if the TF is neither intetional nor flagrant, i.e., instead of a dead ball contact foul B1 decides to yell at you in an unsportsmanlike conduc manner such: "Are you blind! How could you call a held ball. He fouled me." I agree with you that in the original situation it has to be either an intentional of flagrant foul. Of course in NFHS and NCAA Women's an intentional TF really doesn't exist anymore because of the penalties are the same as an TF that is neither intentional or flagrant.

MTD, Sr.
Ok, I agree. You confused me by considering a possible act that wasn't germane to the situation without making your thinking clear.

This was my 8,000th post!

Last edited by Nevadaref; Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 11:20am. Reason: To note my 8,000th post
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:58am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Ok, I agree. You confused me by considering a possible act that wasn't germane to the situation without making your thinking clear.

LOL. My sons consider me a bald old geezer and a senile old fart. WAIT! I resemble that remark, .

MTD, Sr.
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Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 11:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summdawg76 View Post
If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance
Just to clarify one more point you didn't ask about.

If this happened during the initial jump ball, after giving the ball to A for the throwin, the arrow would be set to B.
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Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 08:24am
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Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules in my Original Post.

Would everybody please go back to my Original Post of this Thread and look at my Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules. I am having second thoughts about it. Wouldn't the correct way to put the ball back into play is an AP Throw-in as the POI?

I am head to a H.S. swim meet to watch Andy, our younger son, swim and then watch Mark, Jr. officiate a boys' H.S. JV game tonight. So I will not be back online until tomorrow afternoon. Thanks in advance.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 08:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Would everybody please go back to my Original Post of this Thread and look at my Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules. I am having second thoughts about it. Wouldn't the correct way to put the ball back into play is an AP Throw-in as the POI?

I am head to a H.S. swim meet to watch Andy, our younger son, swim and then watch Mark, Jr. officiate a boys' H.S. JV game tonight. So I will not be back online until tomorrow afternoon. Thanks in advance.

MTD, Sr.
No POI on a single T in FED.
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Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 10:32pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No POI on a single T in FED.

Bob:

Thanks.

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