The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 09:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Jump Ball foul?

If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:05pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Dead Ball Contact May Be Deemed A Technical Foul ...

You will probably forget the arrow here. Dead ball contact, if intentional, or flagrant, will be penalized with a technical foul. Intentional technical: Any player shoots two, his team gets it at division line, opposite table. Flagrant technical: Same as intentional, except player is ejected.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:36pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:20pm
9/11 - Never Forget
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,642
Send a message via Yahoo to grunewar
Wow, I had this exact situation in a girl's game last week!

I am in the habit of specifically telling the girls at the Captain's meeting (like they're listening), when the whistle blows, stop wrestling.

Late in third period, scrum on floor. TWEEEEET! My partner and I move in. Whack, up comes an elbow and down goes one of the girls in tears as she got nailed by an elbow right in the face. TWEEET! I T'd her up (right in front of one of the V officials /trainers who was watching).

I later asked the V official what he thought of the call. He asked if I thought it was intentional or flagrant? He said I might have been a little quick. I said I simply had to get something and went with the T. Good teaching point for me.

We administered the shots and awarded the ball as BillyMac said.
__________________
There was the person who sent ten puns to friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. No pun in ten did.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
You will probably forget the arrow here. Dead ball contact, if intentional, or flagrant, will be penalized with a technical foul. Intentional: Any player shoots two, his team gets it at division line, opposite table. Flagrant: Same as intentional, except player is ejected.
You must clarify these would be Intentional Technical Fouls or Flagrant Technical Fouls (if called in this situation). Because they are Technical Fouls they go to opposite table at the division line. Regular Intentional and Flagrant Fouls are spot fouls with two shots and the ball. You might confuse someone the way you worded your answer.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Thank you for your replies.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 18, 2008, 10:32pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by summdawg76 View Post
If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance

summdawg76:

Breakdown the play:

1) Prior to the held ball the ball is live and in play.

2) A held ball occurs between A1 and B1.

3) The held ball causes the ball to become dead.

4) During the dead ball period after the held ball and before the AP Throw-in starts B1 contacts A1 in an unsportsmanlike manner. A contact foul during a dead ball period is a technical foul (there are a some exceptions but your situation is not one of them). Therefore B1's foul is a TF.

5a) NFHS Rules: Team A will be awarded two free throws as part of the penalty for B1's technical foul and then is awarded a throw-in at the division opposite the Scorer's Table. The AP Arrow is not reversed, because Team A's throw-in is part of the TF penalty and not an AP Throw-in.

5b) NCAA Men's: If the officials judge B1's actions to be intentional or flagrant TF and I would consider B1's actions to be at least an intentional TF. Then after the free throws for B1's TF Team A will receive a throw-in a part of the TF penalty a the division line. If B1s' actions are not considered intentional or flagrant then play is resumed at the Point-of-Interuption (POI) which is an AP Throw-in.

5c) NCAA Women's: If B1's actions are judged by the officials to be flagrant then Team A will receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of B1's TF for a throw-in after the TF free throws; this throw-in is part of the TF penalty. If B1's actions are not judged to be flagrant then play is resumed at the POI which is an AP Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 02:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
summdawg76:

Breakdown the play:

1) Prior to the held ball the ball is live and in play.

2) A held ball occurs between A1 and B1.

3) The held ball causes the ball to become dead.

4) During the dead ball period after the held ball and before the AP Throw-in starts B1 contacts A1 in an unsportsmanlike manner. A contact foul during a dead ball period is a technical foul (there are a some exceptions but your situation is not one of them). Therefore B1's foul is a TF.

5a) NFHS Rules: Team A will be awarded two free throws as part of the penalty for B1's technical foul and then is awarded a throw-in at the division opposite the Scorer's Table. The AP Arrow is not reversed, because Team A's throw-in is part of the TF penalty and not an AP Throw-in.

5b) NCAA Men's: If the officials judge B1's actions to be intentional or flagrant TF and I would consider B1's actions to be at least an intentional TF. Then after the free throws for B1's TF Team A will receive a throw-in a part of the TF penalty a the division line. If B1s' actions are not considered intentional or flagrant then play is resumed at the Point-of-Interuption (POI) which is an AP Throw-in.

5c) NCAA Women's: If B1's actions are judged by the officials to be flagrant then Team A will receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of B1's TF for a throw-in after the TF free throws; this throw-in is part of the TF penalty. If B1's actions are not judged to be flagrant then play is resumed at the POI which is an AP Throw-in.

MTD, Sr.
With no technical foul, right?
I can't see how B1 could be charged with anything other than an intentional technical or a flagrant technical because this was a contact situation during a dead ball.
I find your reference to the POI confusing. There is no POI unless a T is called.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:43am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
With no technical foul, right?
I can't see how B1 could be charged with anything other than an intentional technical or a flagrant technical because this was a contact situation during a dead ball.
I find your reference to the POI confusing. There is no POI unless a T is called.

NevadaRef:

B1's dead ball foul already meets the definition of a TF. The only thing the officials must decide is if it is intentional or flagrant or neither.


The POI reference is if the TF is neither intetional nor flagrant, i.e., instead of a dead ball contact foul B1 decides to yell at you in an unsportsmanlike conduc manner such: "Are you blind! How could you call a held ball. He fouled me." I agree with you that in the original situation it has to be either an intentional of flagrant foul. Of course in NFHS and NCAA Women's an intentional TF really doesn't exist anymore because of the penalties are the same as an TF that is neither intentional or flagrant.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
NevadaRef:

B1's dead ball foul already meets the definition of a TF. The only thing the officials must decide is if it is intentional or flagrant or neither.


The POI reference is if the TF is neither intetional nor flagrant, i.e., instead of a dead ball contact foul B1 decides to yell at you in an unsportsmanlike conduc manner such: "Are you blind! How could you call a held ball. He fouled me." I agree with you that in the original situation it has to be either an intentional of flagrant foul. Of course in NFHS and NCAA Women's an intentional TF really doesn't exist anymore because of the penalties are the same as an TF that is neither intentional or flagrant.

MTD, Sr.
Ok, I agree. You confused me by considering a possible act that wasn't germane to the situation without making your thinking clear.

This was my 8,000th post!

Last edited by Nevadaref; Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 11:20am. Reason: To note my 8,000th post
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 10:58am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Ok, I agree. You confused me by considering a possible act that wasn't germane to the situation without making your thinking clear.

LOL. My sons consider me a bald old geezer and a senile old fart. WAIT! I resemble that remark, .

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 19, 2008, 11:39am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by summdawg76 View Post
If we have a duel possession, I blow the whistle and give the jump ball signal, but one of the defenders continues to fight and elbows the defender.

How do you handle the foul, and the arrow?

Thanks in advance
Just to clarify one more point you didn't ask about.

If this happened during the initial jump ball, after giving the ball to A for the throwin, the arrow would be set to B.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 08:24am
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules in my Original Post.

Would everybody please go back to my Original Post of this Thread and look at my Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules. I am having second thoughts about it. Wouldn't the correct way to put the ball back into play is an AP Throw-in as the POI?

I am head to a H.S. swim meet to watch Andy, our younger son, swim and then watch Mark, Jr. officiate a boys' H.S. JV game tonight. So I will not be back online until tomorrow afternoon. Thanks in advance.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 08:33am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Would everybody please go back to my Original Post of this Thread and look at my Ruling 5a for NFHS Rules. I am having second thoughts about it. Wouldn't the correct way to put the ball back into play is an AP Throw-in as the POI?

I am head to a H.S. swim meet to watch Andy, our younger son, swim and then watch Mark, Jr. officiate a boys' H.S. JV game tonight. So I will not be back online until tomorrow afternoon. Thanks in advance.

MTD, Sr.
No POI on a single T in FED.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 20, 2008, 10:32pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
No POI on a single T in FED.

Bob:

Thanks.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Foul on jump ball to start game MidMadness Basketball 24 Mon Dec 07, 2020 07:28pm
Foul on jump ball participant Raymond Basketball 64 Thu May 01, 2008 04:19pm
Intentional foul on the jump ball RefLarry Basketball 16 Sun Oct 16, 2005 01:57pm
Intentional foul on jump ball? jritchie Basketball 6 Mon Dec 13, 2004 01:51pm
jump ball plenty of contact no foul Sideline Ref Basketball 6 Wed Jan 17, 2001 03:12pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:11am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1