End of game situation offensive foul scenario with a made bucket at the buzzer

[rockchalk jhawk]

This was talked about the other night while were on our way to a game. It's a theoretical situation, but I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts.

Let's say tie ball game, last second shot. Picture this sequence of events, in this order. A1 jumps in the air, releases a try, horn sounds, bucket goes in. A1 then crashes into B1 who has obtained legal guarding position, but the crash happens AFTER the horn.

In "Scenario A" the crash happens before A1 has returned to the floor, but again the crash is after the horn, but the shot went and was released before the buzzer.

In "Scenario B" the same situation, except this time A1 has returned one foot to the ground before crashing into B1.

I'd be interested in hearing what people would do in each scenario, and if your answer is based on NFHS or NCAA. I've got my answers, but I'll save them for now.

[fiasco]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ball is dead once the ball goes through the basket.

With the ball dead and time expired, the game is over. Any contact after the fact is ignored.

[rockchalk jhawk]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ball is dead once the ball goes through the basket.

With the ball dead and time expired, the game is over. Any contact after the fact is ignored.

OK, lets say the crash happend before the ball goes through the hoop. Full court shot from the back court.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by rockchalk jhawk

OK, lets say the crash happend before the ball goes through the hoop. Full court shot from the back court.

Well, the ball is still live if it hasn't gone through the hoop, so you'd have a player control foul. Wave off the basket, report the foul and go to overtime.

[mbyron]

If you trick the case up sufficiently, it will be a PC foul, no basket, time expired, get ready for OT.

[rockchalk jhawk]

is it general consensus then that once the ball is through the hoop and the buzzer has sounded, the contact afterwards is ignored even if the A1 hasn't returned to the ground before the crash?

what if we change it up and say that B1 commits the foul after the buzzer and before the airborn shooter returns to the ground. you're going to ignore that contact as well then?

[Adam]

The only way this basket might count is if the ball went through and the horn sounded prior to the contact.
However, the principals to consider are:
1. Although the ball becomes dead when a basket is made, a personal foul by the airborne shooter can still be called as an exception.
2. Although the ball typically becomes dead when the horn sounds, it remains live if the horn blows while a shot is in the air.

Either way, I’m waving off the shot due to the PC. Unless I can be convinced the contact should be ignored. I'll have to review the rules more carefully, though.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

a personal foul by the airborne shooter can still be called as an exception.

Rule reference?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ball is dead once the ball goes through the basket.

With the ball dead and time expired, the game is over. Any contact after the fact is ignored.

Situation A

A foul on or by an airborne shooter can not be ignored even if the ball is dead. The period doesn't end when the horn sounds while a try is in the air. The period ends when the try ends. Now if the try ended after the horn but before the shooter returned to the floor, I still say its a PC foul. We protect the shooter until they return, but that protection comes with a price. Would we ignore a foul on the shooter after the ball went in and after the horn? Maybe if it didn't effect the outcome of the game. So by that logic we can't ignore a foul by an airborne shooter even if the horn had sounded. PC foul; wipe off the basket and begin the over time period.

Situation B

Since the shooter returned to the floor before contact, they are no longer an airborne shooter. The ball was dead at the moment the try was successful. I'd ignore the contact foul unless it was too sever to ignore. Came over!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Rule reference?

I'll provide it when I can if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Rule reference?

I don't have my rule book with me, but I believe it is in the definitions defining fouls. A personal foul is a live ball contact foul or a foul on or by an airborne shooter. The implication is that a foul on/by an airborne shooter is still a personal foul even if the ball is dead. Check out 4.19.

[rockchalk jhawk]

Originally Posted by rwest

Situation A

A foul on or by an airborne shooter can not be ignored even if the ball is dead. The period doesn't end when the horn sounds while a try is in the air. The period ends when the try ends. Now if the try ended after the horn but before the shooter returned to the floor, I still say its a PC foul. We protect the shooter until they return, but that protection comes with a price. Would we ignore a foul on the shooter after the ball went in and after the horn? Maybe if it didn't effect the outcome of the game. So by that logic we can't ignore a foul by an airborne shooter even if the horn had sounded. PC foul; wipe off the basket and begin the over time period.

Situation B

Since the shooter returned to the floor before contact, they are no longer an airborne shooter. The ball was dead at the moment the try was successful. I'd ignore the contact foul unless it was too sever to ignore. Came over!

These were my answers, but like I said I wanted to hear what others had to say first.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockchalk jhawk

These were my answers, but like I said I wanted to hear what others had to say first.

I agree with rwest on this.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by rwest

I don't have my rule book with me, but I believe it is in the definitions defining fouls. A personal foul is a live ball contact foul or a foul on or by an airborne shooter. The implication is that a foul on/by an airborne shooter is still a personal foul even if the ball is dead. Check out 4.19.

Ya, 4-19-1:

A personal foul also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter while the ball is dead.

Here's an online rule book:

Middle Tennessee Basketball Officials Association