Off. Post Play

[Coltdoggs]

This is for sure a HTBT but I wanted some feedback.

Competitve 8th Grade tourney....most teams are feeder teams for the high schools, so the talent level of these kids is better than rec program kids.

I have a 6'1" 200lb kid playing 4 or 5 position (he'd make a great OL or DL player in football!) ....he has established position on the block, gets the post entry pass...dribbles a couple times to back down defender and set up his very quick spin move into the lane.(kid had great footwork).

During his spin move, he has this tendency to bring the ball up chest high and his elbows come out (vision if you will a football blocker). I'd seen it a few times in the game and on one play an elbow came up on the side of the defenders head.

My P and I did not call anything as there was minimal if any contact with defender. (probalby why I passed on it). If he would have continued his motion, he probably would have taken the def. player's head off!

We discussed it shortly thereafter during a deadball and agreed to keep an eye on it. The elbow was not malicious, just seemed to be part of his normal move.

So I'm wondering...I could have PC, I could have nothing (as we did)...could this be whistled as intentional? With that, if it was deemed intentional...would it be 2 shots and ball even though it was PC and we don't typically shoot FTs on PC fouls.

Now...one time I did whistle him for PC because he got an elbow in the chest of the defender and cleared him out....that one seemed obvious. Does this change your thought process on my first scenario.

Thanks for the help.

[just another ref]

If it is a part of his normal move, I see no way it could be ruled intentional. If an intentional foul is called, by definition it is not a player control foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If it is a part of his normal move, I see no way it could be ruled intentional.

It could be excessive, even if it's part of a normal move. Unlikely, I agree, but possible.

If an intentional foul is called, by definition it is not a player control foul.

Absolutely correct. Definitions, definitions, definitions. A player control foul is a COMMON foul committed by the player in control of the ball.

An intentional foul is not a common foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If it is a part of his normal move, I see no way it could be ruled intentional.

Disagree, it could be ruled intentional if the contact is illegal and excessive.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

dribbles a couple times to back down defender .

PC Foul

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

PC Foul

Bob, the size of this kid...a fart woulda backed down the defender!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Bob, the size of this kid...a fart woulda backed down the defender!

A truly offensive foul.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

A truly offensive foul.

What's the signal for that?

As Bob alluded to, too many times we let the offense "back down", or push the defense out of their spot. If the defense gives ground, perhaps afraid of the contact, that's one thing, but if the offense pushes/displaces the defense (in the name of "backing down"), that should be a PC foul.

How good was this kid - was the defense scared of the contact, or was he using his size to displace the defense?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

As Bob alluded to, too many times we let the offense "back down", or push the defense out of their spot.

And despite what many people think, the defender does not have to fall down for this to be a foul.

[mbyron]

Excessive swinging of the elbows could be a violation, independent of a foul. I've never called it, though.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Bob, the size of this kid...a fart woulda backed down the defender!

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

A truly offensive foul.

Scrapper,

Technically, it's a fragrant foul.

JM

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Excessive swinging of the elbows could be a violation, independent of a foul. I've never called it, though.

I only called it few times, when it was only a violation, before it became a technical foul. I never called it when it was a technical foul. I've only called it a few times when it changed back to a violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Excessive swinging of the elbows could be a violation, independent of a foul. I've never called it, though.

Could be, but don't use it if there's contact. If there's contact, call the foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't use it if there's contact. If there's contact, call the foul.

Good point. Player control personal foul, intentional personal foul, or flagrant personal foul, depending on the severity of the contact, and if any intent can be ascertained.

Yeah. That's right. Ascertained. How's that mbyron?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Player control personal foul, intentional personal foul, or flagrant personal foul, depending on the severity of the contact, and if any intent can be ascertained.

Yeah. That's right. Ascertained. How's that mbyron?

That's good. And we can almost always ascertain others' intentions. For example, every time somebody writes something here we discern whether their intention is to post seriously, ironically, or what have you.