First 2 Block/Charge Philosophy

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Hi all-

Struggling a little bit with the following:

My 2nd year (I keep telling y'all that)- as we are moving to better games the more senior officials have been advising us to pregame the first two block/charges of the game. Goes something like this- if I'm lead and I have a player control on my end and we go back down and you have something similar, you'd better be calling a player control foul as well...

OK, I get why- we don't want to start the game 1-looking like the 2 officials are on different pages and 2- giving one or both coaches reason to start getting on us for being inconsistent. Here's my problem- what if I get the second block/charge and it's a no-question not-even-close block? I'm supposed to tank the call so we look consistent? Even better, if I'm your partner, am I gonna get the business if I go with the block?

I'm pretty sure I'm adding that question to my pregame with veteran partners...

Thanks
Z

Being as honest and forthright as I can. You're in your second year... you will be having a hard enough time as is to get plays right because you probably haven't seen enough and your play recall is just now starting to get plays filed away in your programmed brain.

Go out and get plays right and the other stuff like tempo, flow, cadence, consistency and feel will just come naturally and come even sooner the harder and more work you put into it. Good luck and just go out and get plays right.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Being as honest and forthright as I can. You're in your second year... you will be having a hard enough time as is to get plays right because you probably haven't seen enough and your play recall is just now starting to get plays filed away in your programmed brain.

Go out and get plays right and the other stuff like tempo, flow, cadence, consistency and feel will just come naturally and come even sooner the harder and more work you put into it. Good luck and just go out and get plays right.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you to learn that btaylor just wrote something intelligent on this forum.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

Also why the mechanic is fist in air - followed by another signal. You see a lot more of these double different calls when officials whistle and go straight to the the signal w/o fist in air first.

Eh, my partner usually just points and I usually come out with a fist. We've NEVER had a blarge. It's timing and eye contact.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

Hi all-

Struggling a little bit with the following:

My 2nd year (I keep telling y'all that)- as we are moving to better games the more senior officials have been advising us to pregame the first two block/charges of the game. Goes something like this- if I'm lead and I have a player control on my end and we go back down and you have something similar, you'd better be calling a player control foul as well...

OK, I get why- we don't want to start the game 1-looking like the 2 officials are on different pages and 2- giving one or both coaches reason to start getting on us for being inconsistent. Here's my problem- what if I get the second block/charge and it's a no-question not-even-close block? I'm supposed to tank the call so we look consistent? Even better, if I'm your partner, am I gonna get the business if I go with the block?

I'm pretty sure I'm adding that question to my pregame with veteran partners...

Thanks
Z

It's your second year. I do not think you're good enough yet to do anything but call what you see. And 22 years later, I still do the same thing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It's your second year. I do not think you're good enough yet to do anything but call what you see. And 22 years later, I still do the same thing.

Show off.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Show off.

Nah, what I'm saying is that I'm not good enough to predetermine my calls.

I do give the benefit of the doubt on real coin-flippers to the defense. For a while it felt like we led the world in PC fouls, but most people have now caught up to us.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Nah, what I'm saying is that I'm not good enough to predetermine my calls.

No where is anyone talking about predetermining calls. If it is a block it is a block - if it is PC it is PC.
What people are trying to get you to do is have consistency on similar plays at both ends of the floor that is all.
It will come in time, you will better understand the process, but if it is 100% a Block it is a Block you do not change it because you just had a PC foul at the other end.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

No where is anyone talking about predetermining calls. If it is a block it is a block - if it is PC it is PC.
What people are trying to get you to do is have consistency on similar plays at both ends of the floor that is all.
It will come in time, you will better understand the process, but if it is 100% a Block it is a Block you do not change it because you just had a PC foul at the other end.

Why does one have to think about it this way then?

See the call, make the call. Know the difference between a block and a charge. Just cause my partner kicks a block/charge at one end doesn't mean I'll do so at the other end in the name of "consistency," either.

"you will better understand the process"? If directed at me, it's condescending and poorly placed. If you are talking to someone else here, then I'll let them tell you that.

I do think this is one of the most talked about calls in basketball that is also one of the easiest to make. Did the defender have LGP? If so, ship it the other way. If not, it's a block. It's not that hard. It is possible to overthink the game.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

"you will better understand the process"? If directed at me, it's condescending and poorly placed.

The intent is not meant condecending - the process is to be consistent it is not just with Block/Charges - it is with Arm bars, hand checking, illegal screens. rebounding fouls the intent is that you as a crew are all calling similar palys in a similar manner at both ends of the floor.

The worst thing that can happen is that the baall comes down the court to your primary in the trail and the defender B1 hot stoves the defender and then does it again and you get them for the hand check.
Now you go the other way and with your partner in the trail and the player for team A does the same thing and your partner doesn't call it.
what are you going to hear when you get to the other end of the floor?

getting on the same page as a crew - comes with experience, which is usually why you do not have a crew with two or three officials who just got their licenses on the floor together working the league championships, they tend not to be seasoned enough - sometimes they are and that may be the case with you, to handle some of the suttleties of the game.
if you were offended sorry.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I do think this is one of the most talked about calls in basketball that is also one of the easiest to make. Did the defender have LGP? If so, ship it the other way. If not, it's a block. It's not that hard. It is possible to overthink the game.

I personally think you are actually making it too easy.

In your easy interpretation a defender is allowed to first establish LGP and then "submarine" an alighted player? Also what if defender established LGP and then trys to take a charge by setting up his base wider than shoulder width and in the attempt of the offensive player to slip by him he makes contact with his extended leg and trips?

now in reverse order, what if the defender has not established LGP and on a drive to the basket the off. player alights and wipes the defender away with his off arm or leads with a leg or a knee to the sternum or groin?

[walter]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I personally think you are actually making it too easy.

In your easy interpretation a defender is allowed to first establish LGP and then "submarine" an alighted player? Also what if defender established LGP and then trys to take a charge by setting up his base wider than shoulder width and in the attempt of the offensive player to slip by him he makes contact with his extended leg and trips?

now in reverse order, what if the defender has not established LGP and on a drive to the basket the off. player alights and wipes the defender away with his off arm or leads with a leg or a knee to the sternum or groin?

As for the "submarine" sitch, are you addressing a shot attempt? If so, if the defender got there before the offensive player left his feet, contact in the torso, that is PC. As for your other sitch, the "approximately shoulder width" (4-40-2d) only applies in screening situations since, after establishing IGP, a guard can be moving to maintain guarding position. A trip has nothing to do with a PC/Block. A trip is a trip and is a foul on the defender.

On the reverse side, if the defender gets to a position first, and the offensive player hasn't jumped before he got there, and contact is in the torso, that is still PC. As for the knee to the sternum or groin, it depends what you are asking. If it is simply in the act and is not deliberate or intentional, and again, the defender was there before he left the ground, PC. As for the arm, again, it depends on intent and how it happened.

Imho, PC/block is not all that difficult to call if you observe the whole play. Again, imho, traveling, with the speed and ability of today's players is much more difficult.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I personally think you are actually making it too easy.

In your easy interpretation a defender is allowed to first establish LGP and then "submarine" an alighted player? Also what if defender established LGP and then trys to take a charge by setting up his base wider than shoulder width and in the attempt of the offensive player to slip by him he makes contact with his extended leg and trips?

now in reverse order, what if the defender has not established LGP and on a drive to the basket the off. player alights and wipes the defender away with his off arm or leads with a leg or a knee to the sternum or groin?

And I just officiate what comes to me. If it's a classic block/charge, LGP or not is enough. If it's an undercut, submarine, etc., etc. I just officiate the play.

What we do requires judgment, timing, a feel for the game, and experience to know what to do, but this ain't brain surgery.

Time to take the afternoon off to get ready for the start of my season. Going to hit the hot tub, the elliptical for a bit, and the hot tub again.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Time to take the afternoon off to get ready for the start of my season. Going to hit the hot tub, gin and Tonic, the elliptical for a bit, Gin and tonic, and the hot tub again 2 more gin and Tonic's

good luck have a great season.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

good luck have a great season.

Sounds like a subliminable message to me.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by walter

As for the "submarine" sitch, are you addressing a shot attempt? If so, if the defender got there before the offensive player left his feet, contact in the torso, that is PC. As for your other sitch, the "approximately shoulder width" (4-40-2d) only applies in screening situations since, after establishing IGP, a guard can be moving to maintain guarding position. A trip has nothing to do with a PC/Block. A trip is a trip and is a foul on the defender.

On the reverse side, if the defender gets to a position first, and the offensive player hasn't jumped before he got there, and contact is in the torso, that is still PC. As for the knee to the sternum or groin, it depends what you are asking. If it is simply in the act and is not deliberate or intentional, and again, the defender was there before he left the ground, PC. As for the arm, again, it depends on intent and how it happened.

Imho, PC/block is not all that difficult to call if you observe the whole play. Again, imho, traveling, with the speed and ability of today's players is much more difficult.

I am talking about a player leaving the floor and the defender after establishing LGP he ducks and undercuts the guy rather than taking a legitimate hit....

In the other play I'm saying a player is leaving the floor toward the hoop and makes contact with the defender who is unnaturally wider than normal.

On the reverse side, I will have to disagree with you... We as referees should not referee intent. Reffing intent can only get you in trouble. How do you explain it to a coach? "Coach, I know what he was trying to do" or "Coach, I know what his intent was and it was unsportsmanlike" You think that is going to go over well with him. Point being don't ref intent, referee the play on its own merits.

As far as the arm and leg... these are unatural moves and overt in nature and should supercede a player not having LGP. When a player "wipes out" with his off arm when a player is legitimately trying to block a shot, that is advantageous for the offensive player and leading with a leg or knee is also advantageous and a very overt move.