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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 01:36pm
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This is probably a common question, but I am having a debate with one of the teachers at my school. I am a PIAA official, and he has coached basketball for a number of years.

According to the rules, a player, once they have established a legal guarding position (Both feet on the floor, torso facing the offense), they are permitted to move laterally or obliquely to maintain that position. The point of the debate seems to be in 2 directions.

1) The player is not permitted to move toward the offensive player. My take on this is that they are not allowed to close the gap between them in a forward direction. They are permitted lateral movement, so they can move sideways into the path of the dribbler, such that the dribbler cannot get head and shoulders past them before the contact occurs. I guess the way I am taking that is that if the dribbler changes direction, the defender, having established the position, can move sideways (directly left to directly right) or obliquely (away from them, at any angle), and continues to have established the position. For that to be a block, the defender must move forward towards the dribbler. He thinks that moving sideways into their proposed path is not permitted, because it is moving "toward" the dribbler. I am saying if you move sideways, directly sideways, and having already established a position, beat them to the spot so that the contact occurs in the chest or shoulder area, whether or not they have 2 feet on the ground, it is a PC foul.

2)The other point is that moving sideways, he feels the player must reestablish the initial guarding position every time they pick up a foot to move sideways, before they can have established the "new" position. The rule reads that they can move sideways legally, and therefore do not have to reestablish a new guarding position, because they established the initial one.

Without a diagram, it is difficult to explain what he means by number 1... think of a compass or protractor.

0 is toward the dribbler, 180 is directly away from them - 90 and 270 are directly sideways for the defender. The defender is permitted, once they have established the initial guarding position, to move anywhere between 90 and 270 degrees, and as long as they get to the spot before the offense, it is considered a PC foul. If they move in any direction between 270 and 0 or 0 and 90, they have moved toward the dribbler, and it is a block. He is saying that by moving, lets say, 270 exactly, they are moving toward the dribbler because they are moving into their path.

Ideas?

Also, I know that a lot of people are anywhere from very shaky to completely refusing to call a PC on a player against a moving defender, even though the rules call for it. That isn't a debate I want to get into - I just want to find out if my interpretation of the rules is correct.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:08pm
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#1 No reason you can't DECREASE the gap. If the defender creates contact, then BLOCK could be the call. The amount of contact must be factored-in also.

#2 Wrong. He has been listening to too many TV commentators. The defender does not have to reestablish a legal guarding position with every move (both feet on the floor etc.)

Remember the dribbler is primarily responsible for the contact. If the defender is doing everything legally then the contact is going to be either player control or nothing.

I tend to judge this play upon "Did the dribbler have opportunity to avoid contact?" If no then probably BLOCK. If yes, then perhaps PLAYER CONTROL. Additionally, "Did the dribbler get by (head and shoulders) the defender before contact occurred?" If no, then possibly PC. If yes, then BLOCK.

That is a simplified shot at it. Others will have more comments.

Also this thread was very recently discussed under the same name, Block/Charge, probably within the last week of discussion.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:17pm
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Well, #2 is definately false. The rule states that "after the initial guarding position is obtained the guard is not reqired to have either or both feet on the floor . . . and the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs" (4-23-3, in relevant part).

The first question is a bit more iffy and definately judgemental. Per the rulebook and all the cases, the defender is allowed to move into the path of the dribbler - time and distance are not factors, and the defender is allowed to "regain guarding position at the last moment [before contact]" (10.6.1A).

That said, I tend to call blocks in cases like this (even though I generally call more PC fouls than all of the other IM refs combined). First, the generalized rule of head and shoulders past the torso still applies. Often the defender will just get part of a leg and shoulder in the way of the offensive player. The dribbler can easily get his head and shoulders past the defender's torso - block. Also, when the defender comes in hard and fast, there's often a force to send the dribbler off of his path. In that case, I apply advantage/disadvantage. The defender didn't go anywhere and the dribbler was basically pushed out of the way - I generally call a block on this play, too.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:22pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
#2 Wrong. He has been listening to too many TV commentators. The defender does not have to reestablish a legal guarding position with every move (both feet on the floor etc.)
I know the NBA has different rules on these things, but...

I was watching SportsCenter last week, the morning after the Warriors beat the Lakers. Kobe drove in looking for the game-tying layup, but Earl Boykins slid in front of him and took a charge. On the slow-mo replay the announcer (Kenny Mayne?) said "Let's see if his feet are set...it sure looks like his right foot is up in the air off the floor, a bad call." or something to that same effect.

Enough of these comments pounded in the mind of a bball player/fan/coach/official makes this such a difficult call for people to agree on.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:28pm
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The way that I like to look at this, and also, explain it to a coach who questions the call, is to look at, "Who initiated the contact?"

You should also consider, where the contact was made, and if an advatage was gained, and by whom?

I think your friend is too set on the professional rules, and is thinking that the defender's feet have to be set, to take a charge.

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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
The first question is a bit more iffy and definately judgemental. Per the rulebook and all the cases, the defender is allowed to move into the path of the dribbler - time and distance are not factors, and the defender is allowed to "regain guarding position at the last moment [before contact]" (10.6.1A).
Once they defensive player gains a legal guarding position,all they then have to do is get in front of the offensive player-no other restrictions.If the contact is then on the torso of the defender,AND the defender is NOT moving towards the offensive player when the contact occurs,the foul is on the offensive player.If the contact is outside the torso,or the defender is moving towards the offensive player when the contact occurs,then the foul is on the defender.

That's how I try to call it.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 02:58pm
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NBA rules

Other than the semi-circle under the hoop, I'm not sure that the NBA rules are substantively different. I've always thought that the NBA refs were much better than other levels at make good charge calls while the defender is moving.
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
The first question is a bit more iffy and definately judgemental. Per the rulebook and all the cases, the defender is allowed to move into the path of the dribbler - time and distance are not factors, and the defender is allowed to "regain guarding position at the last moment [before contact]" (10.6.1A).
Once they defensive player gains a legal guarding position,all they then have to do is get in front of the offensive player-no other restrictions.If the contact is then on the torso of the defender,AND the defender is NOT moving towards the offensive player when the contact occurs,the foul is on the offensive player.If the contact is outside the torso,or the defender is moving towards the offensive player when the contact occurs,then the foul is on the defender.

That's how I try to call it.
I guess the point of the debate is, what is "moving toward" vs. moving into the path of. He says that by moving sideways, you are moving toward the offensive player, and even if you manage to get in front of him, it is a foul on the defense. I guess this is what I need a clearer statement on. If the offensive player changes direction, and after establishing a legal guarding position, if the defensive player moves directly sideways, and manages to get enough in the path of the offensive player (0,1,or 2 feet on the ground at the time) that there is torso-torso contact, it is a player control foul. Yes or no? (my understanding is, by the rules, it is, even though most refs seem to shy away from this)
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Old Tue Dec 17, 2002, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by drinkeii
[/B]
I guess the point of the debate is, what is "moving toward" vs. moving into the path of. He says that by moving sideways, you are moving toward the offensive player, and even if you manage to get in front of him, it is a foul on the defense. [/B][/QUOTE]That statement is completely wrong.You can always legally move sideways into the path of a dribbler once you have obtained an original guarding position.You just look to see where the contact is made,and make sure that the defender isn't stepping forward into the dribbler when the contact occurs.If the contact is on the defender's torso,it is always a player control foul-except in the specific case where a defender has moved sideways to get into position before the dribbler gets there,and then moves forward when the contact occurs.In that specific case,the foul is on the defender.

If you read casebook play 10.6.1SitA,you should have a good idea of the concepts involved.

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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 03:20am
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I bet that everybody who posted on this thread, including myself, if they had access to slo-mo of every block/charge call they ever made, would find at least some contradictions. It's like Maverick (Tom Cruise) said: "You
don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead." This is a split-second call that would be very difficult to recreate in your mind. You go with your gut and never blink. One side will be upset no matter what.
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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 08:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by just another ref
...It's like Maverick (Tom Cruise) said: "You
don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead." This is a split-second call that would be very difficult to recreate in your mind. You go with your gut and never blink. One side will be upset no matter what.
Nice, Justa!!!!
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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by just another ref
I bet that everybody who posted on this thread, including myself, if they had access to slo-mo of every block/charge call they ever made, would find at least some contradictions. It's like Maverick (Tom Cruise) said: "You
don't have time to think up there. If you think, you're dead." This is a split-second call that would be very difficult to recreate in your mind. You go with your gut and never blink. One side will be upset no matter what.
True, but it does not apply to all. This is great once you have developed this "sixth sense", but it is not a good idea for a new official to "go with your gut", they need to study the rules and look at actual plays from the stands to see how they apply and then get a feel for what is happening.
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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 11:13am
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4 Sport Official
The way that I like to look at this, and also, explain it to a coach who questions the call, is to look at, "Who initiated the contact?"

You should also consider, where the contact was made, and if an advatage was gained, and by whom?



Exactly. I happened to be in front of the bench last night and was questioned about a b/c call my partner had. It was a good call in that the dribbler initiated the contact, but it looked ugly because the defender was falling backwards anyway. The coach started in on me, I said "who initiated that contact, coach", he kept trying to bring some other factors in but about the third time I asked him that question he sat down.

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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by just another ref
You go with your gut and never blink.
If you just go with your gut, you're gonna get it wrong 50% of the time. If you referee the defense, you don't need your gut. Watch what the defender does. If he's legal, and he gets hit on the torso, it's a charge. If you concentrate on the defender and don't get hypnotized by the ball, the block/charge is not a difficult call to make. Really.

Chuck
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Old Wed Dec 18, 2002, 02:26pm
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Thumbs up Block/Charge pc of Cake

Excellent Chuck,
Great advice
Referee the defense, don't get straight lined, and see enough repetitions and you will develop that mystical "sixth sense" on this play.
Actually, I believe once aquired, it is one of the easier calls to make.
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