Block-Charge (Philosophy Question)

[footlocker]

Ok. We have gone rounds on this. And probably will for much time to come.

I had a tournament game earlier this week. Already had one player control foul on white. Now same white player (A1) is driving to the hoop, red player (B1) has both feet touching the court and is facing A1. He moves laterally and there is big impact on the play. I call player control foul. By the book, this is right. I am 95% certain the call was right and would like to see the tape on the play. Although, I know that the coach is going to go crazy. Second player control on the same player. All he sees, and everyone as well is that B1 was not set. I think that this call is made a block more often that PC. If I had called block, it's likely nothing would have been said.

I can't punish the defender that had legal gaurding position and got to the spot on the floor first. However, I know that sometimes its easier to call what everyone is expecting.

any thoughts...

[williebfree]

If A1 does not want to get the PC Foul, he should not drive through the lane with reckless abandon. You have got to call them the way you see them, it is the only way you (and your partner(s)) can be consistent.

This is why you get paid the BIG bucks!

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by footlocker


I can't punish the defender that had legal gaurding position and got to the spot on the floor first. However, I know that sometimes its easier to call what everyone is expecting.

any thoughts...

Look at it this way...maybe "everyone" is expecting you to call the block (incorrectly) instead of the PC (correctly) because too many officials take that easy way out...from what you wrote, it sounds like you made the correct call...

[Smitty]

Originally posted by footlocker
Now same white player (A1) is driving to the hoop, red player (B1) has both feet touching the court and is facing A1. He moves laterally and there is big impact on the play.

Did B1 move laterally in the same direction as A1 is moving? In other words, was B1 in LGP during A1's initial drive through the lane? If B1 was facing A1 but moving perpendicular to A1's drive to the hoop, I think it may not be so simple.

[icallfouls]

I realize that not all of you will agree on this, but ig the contact is torso to torso, I am going to call the player control foul, unless the shooter is already airborne and the defense slides under.

One thing that fans overlook these days is that the teams practice taking charges every day. How often have you heard a coach get after the players to stand in and "take a charge?"

At the HS level, officials don't call the player control foul enough.

my .02

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by icallfouls
I realize that not all of you will agree on this, but ig the contact is torso to torso, I am going to call the player control foul, unless the shooter is already airborne and the defense slides under.

Not always the best call. Does defender have LGP? Who initiated the contact? Are you reffing the defense?

Not likely saying anything you don't already know, but these are important things to remember. I think it's more accurate to say that torso-to-torso contact is ALMOST always a PC foul. But not always. It's important not to reward sloppy defense.

Like I always say...

[jont]

It's impossible to know what the correct call is on that particular play without seeing it. However, if you're 95% sure you got the call right, then you need to stay with it, regardless if it's "easier" to call a block.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Smitty

Did B1 move laterally in the same direction as A1 is moving? In other words, was B1 in LGP during A1's initial drive through the lane? If B1 was facing A1 but moving perpendicular to A1's drive to the hoop, I think it may not be so simple.

Very good point,if B1 moved into A1's path and was not moving to MAINTAIN LGP,B1 has to re-establish before A1
leaves the floor.That is instantaneous,so all B1 has to do is stick a landing in front of A1 before he leaves the floor.

[Rich]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Not always the best call. Does defender have LGP? Who initiated the contact? Are you reffing the defense?

Not likely saying anything you don't already know, but these are important things to remember. I think it's more accurate to say that torso-to-torso contact is ALMOST always a PC foul. But not always. It's important not to reward sloppy defense.

Like I always say...

I was in 2OT of a boys varsity game a few weeks ago when a player drove all the way down the court right down the middle. He had a full head of steam and absolutely smeared the defender right in the middle of the torso.

I was the lead. Block. Score it. I sold it hard, too. The defense let this guy fly full speed down court and after the driver took off the defender made a small slide left and took one for the team.

Don't use rules of thumb like torso-to-torso. Referee the defense. I will say that most block/charges tend to go the other way in my games because LGP doesn't require having nails through your shoes.

--Rich

[footlocker]

Rich- not sure I understood all of what your trying to say.

Everyone- I'm not asking for reinforcement about the call. You guys will never know if I got it right. This is a philosophy question. So far, consesus seems to be get the call right and forget about the popular call. That's tough. But it is how I already ref it now.

icallfouls- I absoluetly agree with you. The Player Control is not called enough. I don't say this because I like PC or because I want to create controversy. But the fact is when I review tape, I see the charge often (despite what is called).

Sometimes it seems unfair or unpopular to make the PC call but if that is right, I have no problem going to the other end of the floor. I belive other refs cop out and call the block. (Somehow this is easier for a coach to swallow than the PC foul.)

[zebraman]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Originally posted by Smitty
Originally posted by footlocker

Did B1 move laterally in the same direction as A1 is moving? In other words, was B1 in LGP during A1's initial drive through the lane? If B1 was facing A1 but moving perpendicular to A1's drive to the hoop, I think it may not be so simple. [/QUOTE]

Why not? The only direction that a defender cannot move once establishing LGP is towards the offensive player.
RULE 4-23-3: "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."


Very good point,if B1 moved into A1's path and was not moving to MAINTAIN LGP, B1 has to re-establish before A1
leaves the floor.That is instantaneous,so all B1 has to do is stick a landing in front of A1 before he leaves the floor. [/QUOTE]

The play described is a dribbling player, not an airborne shooter. B1 doesn't have to "re-establish" LGP, because it was never lost.

Footlocker, it sounds like you made the right call. I agree that too many HS officials take the "easy way" out and go block when it should be PC.

Rich F: The way you describe your play, it sounds like a PC unless A1 was an airborne shooter. If a driver (not a shooter) smears the defender, it's a charge.

Z

[Rich]

Originally posted by zebraman
Originally posted by blindzebra
Originally posted by Smitty
Originally posted by footlocker

Did B1 move laterally in the same direction as A1 is moving? In other words, was B1 in LGP during A1's initial drive through the lane? If B1 was facing A1 but moving perpendicular to A1's drive to the hoop, I think it may not be so simple.

Why not? The only direction that a defender cannot move once establishing LGP is towards the offensive player.
RULE 4-23-3: "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."


Very good point,if B1 moved into A1's path and was not moving to MAINTAIN LGP, B1 has to re-establish before A1
leaves the floor.That is instantaneous,so all B1 has to do is stick a landing in front of A1 before he leaves the floor. [/QUOTE]

The play described is a dribbling player, not an airborne shooter. B1 doesn't have to "re-establish" LGP, because it was never lost.

Footlocker, it sounds like you made the right call. I agree that too many HS officials take the "easy way" out and go block when it should be PC.

Rich F: The way you describe your play, it sounds like a PC unless A1 was an airborne shooter. If a driver (not a shooter) smears the defender, it's a charge.

Z [/QUOTE]

Not when the defender slides laterally after the driver has become an airborne shooter and when the defender hasn't established LGP prior. Maybe I described the play poorly: Everyone's eyes were on the freight train coming down the floor -- except mine who watched the defender slide over after the player driving took off.

What I was saying in the original post, footlocker, is that I seem to call many block/charge scenarios charges because the rules really aren't as stringent as many people think. The defender doesn't have to be still, set, feet not moving, etc. Just establish LGP and keep it.

--Rich

[footlocker]

Rich,

I'm glad I held back my response till I understood better what you were trying to say. I agree with almost all that has been said here. Maybe next season, I'll talk over this with my commissioner and see if we can get on the same page as an association. Good thoughts.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by zebraman
Originally posted by blindzebra
Originally posted by Smitty
Originally posted by footlocker

Did B1 move laterally in the same direction as A1 is moving? In other words, was B1 in LGP during A1's initial drive through the lane? If B1 was facing A1 but moving perpendicular to A1's drive to the hoop, I think it may not be so simple.

Why not? The only direction that a defender cannot move once establishing LGP is towards the offensive player.
RULE 4-23-3: "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained, the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."


Very good point,if B1 moved into A1's path and was not moving to MAINTAIN LGP, B1 has to re-establish before A1
leaves the floor.That is instantaneous,so all B1 has to do is stick a landing in front of A1 before he leaves the floor. [/QUOTE]

The play described is a dribbling player, not an airborne shooter. B1 doesn't have to "re-establish" LGP, because it was never lost.

Footlocker, it sounds like you made the right call. I agree that too many HS officials take the "easy way" out and go block when it should be PC.

Rich F: The way you describe your play, it sounds like a PC unless A1 was an airborne shooter. If a driver (not a shooter) smears the defender, it's a charge.

Z [/QUOTE]

Z in the original post he said driving to the basket.Read my post again,I said the defender may move to MAINTAIN LGP.
If player A is in the middle of the floor and player B is
on the side line,player B has to establish in player A's path to have LGP.That is what I was talking about in my reply.

[Kelvin green]

My two cents

We need to reward those playing good defense, It should be defined as the player out of control foul.

Too many times officials have the attitude that the dribler/shooter can do no wrong. Encourage good D!

If it is one of those plays that is close and could go either way, I wont bail the offense out if they are out of control.