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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 02:37am
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Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I did think of this though: If Team B violates and Team A shoots a no-rimmer on the first of two shots, is it a simultaneous violation? B does violate, but is it even a violation on A since it's the first of two free throws? Wouldn't you call a violation on B and re-shoot the first free throw?
You're not the first one to have that thought. This kind of stuff already appears in the NFHS Case Book. I strongly suggest that you get ahold of a copy and read it cover-to-cover.


9.1.3 SITUATION H:
While A1 is attempting a final free throw, (a) B1 enters the lane too soon followed by A2, both of whom are in marked lane spaces; or (b) B1, in a marked lane space enters the lane too soon, then shooter A1 steps on the free-throw line while releasing the throw. RULING: In (a), the violation by A2 is ignored and, if the try is successful, the goal shall count and the violation by B1, shall be ignored. If the try is unsuccessful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by A1 under the same conditions as those for the original free throw. In (b), a double violation is called and the ball is put in play using the alternating-possession procedure. COMMENT: Anytime the defense violates first, followed by a violation by the freethrow shooter, the officials should consider the possibility of disconcertion. (9-1 Penalty)



9.1.3 SITUATION G:


As A1 starts the free-throwing motion, B1 hurriedly raises his/her arms. In the judgment of the official, the action of B1 disconcerts A1 and causes the attempt to miss the basket ring. RULING: As soon as the ball misses the ring, it becomes dead. Since free thrower A1 violated following disconcertion, a substitute free throw is awarded. (9-1-3a Penalty 4c)

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 09:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You're not the first one to have that thought. This kind of stuff already appears in the NFHS Case Book. I strongly suggest that you get ahold of a copy and read it cover-to-cover.


9.1.3 SITUATION H:
While A1 is attempting a final free throw, (a) B1 enters the lane too soon followed by A2, both of whom are in marked lane spaces; or (b) B1, in a marked lane space enters the lane too soon, then shooter A1 steps on the free-throw line while releasing the throw. RULING: In (a), the violation by A2 is ignored and, if the try is successful, the goal shall count and the violation by B1, shall be ignored. If the try is unsuccessful, the ball shall become dead when the free throw ends and a substitute free throw shall be attempted by A1 under the same conditions as those for the original free throw. In (b), a double violation is called and the ball is put in play using the alternating-possession procedure. COMMENT: Anytime the defense violates first, followed by a violation by the freethrow shooter, the officials should consider the possibility of disconcertion. (9-1 Penalty)



9.1.3 SITUATION G:


As A1 starts the free-throwing motion, B1 hurriedly raises his/her arms. In the judgment of the official, the action of B1 disconcerts A1 and causes the attempt to miss the basket ring. RULING: As soon as the ball misses the ring, it becomes dead. Since free thrower A1 violated following disconcertion, a substitute free throw is awarded. (9-1-3a Penalty 4c)

What are you implying that I don't know or am missing? We've already covered the cases that you posted. I have a case book and I know that rule.

I was asking about the first of two free throws, not the final free throw, which is what your first situation is referring to.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 11:23am
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
This is absolutely correct for NFHS. Wasn't there an NCAA interp about this a couple seasons ago? I seem to remember that it was different in NCAA.
I don't have those memos. Do you still have them in your attic? Next to your MTD Sr. shrine?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
What are you implying that I don't know or am missing? We've already covered the cases that you posted. I have a case book and I know that rule.

I was asking about the first of two free throws, not the final free throw, which is what your first situation is referring to.

I've forgotten the OP, but if there's a single violation by the defense on the first FT, throw it again. If there are two violations enforced, then wipe tout the first FT, and go to the second.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 12:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
What are you implying that I don't know or am missing? We've already covered the cases that you posted. I have a case book and I know that rule.

I was asking about the first of two free throws, not the final free throw, which is what your first situation is referring to.
It doesn't matter which free throw you're shooting, enforcement is the same. If each team violates, wipe away the shot and take it away. If only the defense violates, reshoot if the shooter misses.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 12:40pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
It doesn't matter which free throw you're shooting, enforcement is the same. If each team violates, wipe away the shot and take it away. If only the defense violates, reshoot if the shooter misses.
I realize that, but if it's the first free throw where a simultaneous violation occurs you don't go to the arrow. That's the point I was getting at.

I know the bolded part. I hope that anyone who officiates or watches this game would know that.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 12:41pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I've forgotten the OP, but if there's a single violation by the defense on the first FT, throw it again. If there are two violations enforced, then wipe tout the first FT, and go to the second.
I know this already. I'm not trying to be rude, but I know that a single violation by the defense on a FT results in re-shooting if it's missed. The OP was about a simultaneous violation occuring.
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Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
You're right. I didn't mention that.

I did think of this though: If Team B violates and Team A shoots a no-rimmer on the first of two shots, is it a simultaneous violation? B does violate, but is it even a violation on A since it's the first of two free throws? Wouldn't you call a violation on B and re-shoot the first free throw?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
What are you implying that I don't know or am missing? We've already covered the cases that you posted. I have a case book and I know that rule.

I was asking about the first of two free throws, not the final free throw, which is what your first situation is referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
I realize that, but if it's the first free throw where a simultaneous violation occurs you don't go to the arrow. That's the point I was getting at.
If you know this, why did you ask the question? I guess I'm confused about what your real question is.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 01:20pm
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is this correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Yep, straight from the Case Book:
MISTAKE IN ADMINISTRATION SEQUENCE
8.7 SITUATION B: B1 fouls A1 just as the first quarter ends and then A1 retaliates and intentionally contacts B1. A1’s foul is a technical foul as it occurred during a dead ball. Team A is in the bonus. The officials by mistake administer the penalty for the technical foul before the free throw(s) by A1. RULING: The penalties should have been administered in the order in which the fouls occurred. However, since all merited free throws were attempted it does not constitute a correctable error situation. The second quarter will begin with an alternating-possession throw-in. (4-19-5c)
A1 who in fouled is worst free throw shooter on the team. A2 (designated FT guy) is a sharpshooter. In the above scenario A1 shoots 2 FTs (barely drawing iron). Coach has A2 ready to go nail the two technical FTs.

But officials realize they have already awarded the technical free throws (mistakenly by the officials), and now A1 is supposed to shoot 2 for the original foul. Coach A is now distraught at that prospect.

Do the officials count the result of the two as being performed in the correct order and now allow A2 to shoot the technical FTs?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 01:22pm
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Originally Posted by referee99 View Post
A1 who in fouled is worst free throw shooter on the team. A2 (designated FT guy) is a sharpshooter. In the above scenario A1 shoots 2 FTs (barely drawing iron). Coach has A2 ready to go nail the two technical FTs.

But officials realize they have already awarded the technical free throws, and now A1 is supposed to shoot 2 for the original foul. Coach A is now distraught at that prospect.

Do the officials count the result of the two as being performed in the correct order and now allow A2 to shoot the technical FTs?
This is where you keep the whole thing to yourself and decide with your partners that you had the correct order all along
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 02:47pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If you know this, why did you ask the question? I guess I'm confused about what your real question is.
Me too.
Apparently he has a Case Book, but not a Rules Book.
9-1 Penalty Section #3 and #4 explicitly address his play.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 03, 2008, 02:51pm
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In my original post, there was no disconcerting and it was the first of 2 throws. So I was correct in that the violations by both A and B wipe out the no-rim free throw and we go to throw #2.

And because we are strange people trying to consider every angle, what if I amend my OP so that the sitch is:

B2 steps into the lane early, B4 mistakenly sets up below the free throw line though outside the 3-pt line, and A1 shoots the air ball.

2 defensive violations vs 1 offensive.........reshoot the 1st throw? Or blow the whistle and mutter to your partner "can't anyone here play this game?" as you walk to the concession stand for some chicken fingers and a Diet Coke!
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