Call Consistency as a Crew

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sorry, but Snaqs is correct. Upward, sideways, downwards or any other direction of motion is not relevant to judging whether or not a defender was in position in time. What you needed to write was "before the offensive player goes airbornee." Whether he
has begun his shooting motion or not has no impact upon whether the foul is offensive or defensive.
Snaqs rightly chastised you for your incorrect phrasing.

Well I can't speak for the college game although I thought it was all the same but in the pro game it is when the off. Player starts his upward shooting motion. Can you give me the rule citation where it says that the off player has to be airborne?

I know I used to think the same thing and then read deeper in my rule book and it was different.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I can't speak for the college game although I thought it was all the same but in the pro game it is when the off. Player starts his upward shooting motion. Can you give me the rule citation where it says that the off player has to be airborne?

I know I used to think the same thing and then read deeper in my rule book and it was different.

The NFHS citation is rule 4-23-5(d) and the NCAA citation is rule 4-35-5(d). They both basically use the same language. The NCAA language is "When an opponent is airborne, the guard shall have obtained legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing court."

That's an absolutely basic rule that's been unchanged in both rulesets as long as I've been around. It's a big mistake to confuse NBE rules and philosophies with the NCAA and NFHS ones. They are completely different.

What the pros do is irrelevant because they don't follow their own rules half the time anyway.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I love the thought process that most people have about judging each play on its own merit, that is great and i believe in it. If some people thought that a block/charge was hard and you thought it was not a 50/50 play by any means, then by all means call it like you see it and I believe this should be the way it is way way more often than not.

I believe this does not fall under the 50/50 play principle.

Sorry, Ben, but I personally do not believe in any 50/50 play principle. That's just a cop-out imo. It's either a block or a charge and any good, experienced official can and will make that call based on it's merits only without worrying about whether the play was close enough to be labeled a....horrors.... 50/50 play.

Sometimes you can analyze yourself into a coma instead of just officiating the damn game to the best of your personal abilities. I honestly believe that is currently the NBA's biggest problem when it comes to officiating. They've forgotten that their officials are actually smart enough and good enough to do a game without having to be second-guessed and and analyzed to death. What separates the good official from the great official is usually judgment, and if you try to remove that judgment factor, then all you will do is reduce both of them to being mediocre. And things like 50/50 principles are a good example of that.

As usual, jmo.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sorry, Ben, but I personally do not believe in any 50/50 play principle. That's just a cop-out imo. It's either a block or a charge and any good, experienced official can and will make that call based on it's merits only without worrying about whether the play was close enough to be labeled a....horrors.... 50/50 play.

Sometimes you can analyze yourself into a coma instead of just officiating the damn game to the best of your personal abilities. I honestly believe that is currently the NBA's biggest problem when it comes to officiating. They've forgotten that their officials are actually smart enough and good enough to do a game without having to be second-guessed and and analyzed to death. What separates the good official from the great official is usually judgment, and if you try to remove that judgment factor, then all you will do is reduce both of them to being mediocre. And things like 50/50 principles are a good example of that.

As usual, jmo.

JR,

Not trying to be sarcastic in any way but you are telling me that you have never had a block charge play that was so hard to distinguish that it could have went either way... Easily. If you haven't then you are the most fortunate man in the history of basketball.

At the level I work these men are unbelievable athletes and make it hard as hell to ref sometime. And in just this year I have seen so many bang bang block charge plays! I believe 9.5/10 you should be able to distinguish but there are those rare times when they are just hard *** plays. I understand what you are saying about it being a cop-out though. I also wish I could get you to sit in on some of our pre season meetings and summer training programs. I really think you would change your mind about how we work and are taught to work.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

JR,

Not trying to be sarcastic in any way but you are telling me that you have never had a block charge play that was so hard to distinguish that it could have went either way... Easily. If you haven't then you are the most fortunate man in the history of basketball.

At the level I work these men are unbelievable athletes and make it hard as hell to ref sometime. And in just this year I have seen so many bang bang block charge plays! I believe 9.5/10 you should be able to distinguish but there are those rare times when they are just hard *** plays. I understand what you are saying about it being a cop-out though. I also wish I could get you to sit in on some of our pre season meetings and summer training programs. I really think you would change your mind about how we work and are taught to work.

I am not trying to be sarcastic but, just what level do you officiate? Actually, if one knows the rule and knows how to appky it, one should not have any problems in making the call no matter how close it is. Besides, if the block/charge is that close, go with the charge.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

JR,

Not trying to be sarcastic in any way but you are telling me that you have never had a block charge play that was so hard to distinguish that it could have went either way... Easily. If you haven't then you are the most fortunate man in the history of basketball.

Of course I've had bang-bang calls that were close as hell. I just try to make what I think is the right call for that particular play without worrying about anything else. I don't worry about what coaches/players think and I sureashell don't worry or even think about who got the last bang-bang call.

Do you know what the real difference in these type of calls is imo? None of 'em are exactly the same. There's some slight, subtle difference in all block/charge plays. That's why I think that you have to officiate the play, not history. The tape doesn't lie afterward either. You might have missed something because you couldn't get into optimal position because of, say, a quick break the other way. If there's a reason that you missed the call, you try to learn from it. No matter what though, you ain't gonna be right on all of 'em. And calling a game by saying that ALL close block/charge plays should be one or the other isn't gonna make you right ALL of the time either.

Btw, if you think that I'd change my mind if I sat in on some NBA training sessions, well, all I gotta say to that is the NBA has already admitted that they have very serious problems with their current training methods and they're going to have to work hard to correct them. From observation, I agree with that analysis. NBA officials are almost unanimously being dumped on these days by almost everybody it seems. Well, I don't think that it's the official's fault. I think that it's the fault of the people giving direction to those officials.

[love2refbball]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No disrespect to girls basketball but I rarely see a girl obtain LGP and take a charge. They simply don't do it.

Are you kidding me? There are SOME boys who "simply don't do it", and SOME girls who are very capable. You probably think girls can't block shots either. Just another perfect example of "the good ole boys club" in high school basketball officiating.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't follow this at all.

Then I'll explain. And I'll use small words so that you'll be sure to understand, you warthog-faced buffoon.

(That's a joke. From the movie The Princess Bride. I'm just kidding. I don't really think you're warthog-faced. That was a joke, too. )

In the first place, the expression "too close to call" doesn't work. There is no play that's too close to call. We have to make a call.

Of course you have to make a call. But as someone else mentioned, how many times have we seen plays on video, watched them a dozen times -- in slow motion, and still we can't come to a consensus on them? There are these plays that you literally can't tell with any certainty whether they are block or charge. And there are many more of them that happen in real time. Once we see video, you can usually tell. But in real time, sometimes it's nearly impossible to be certain of the call. These are the calls we're talking about. There aren't 100 per game, but there might be 3 or 4 if you're officiating very fast, aggressive players.

If you do have multiple plays in a game that are that close, there is no right and wrong, it depends on who you ask.

Of course there's right or wrong. It's either a block or a charge. The problem is we can't be certain of which it is. What we can be certain of, is making sure that we call those plays the same way as a crew.

Whether the last call was yours or your partner's, you must try to get this one right, and what the last call was has no part in the equation.

Sigh. Of course you want to get it right. We all want to nail that call. And if it's clearly one or the other, that's what you're going to call. But if it's so close that you just can't be sure, the last call is a great reference.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

if one knows the rule and knows how to appky it, one should not have any problems in making the call no matter how close it is. Besides, if the block/charge is that close, go with the charge.

Aren't these two statements kind of at odds? You're saying you should have no problem. And you're also saying that there are plays that are a problem, so go charge. That seems a little contradictory.

And by the way, why hasn't this response generated debate from Jurassic? Jurassic, you're all bent out of shape about trying to call these plays like your partner. Just referee the damn play, right? Well, how is "just call it a charge" any better than "call it the same way as your partner"?

[zeedonk]

As another who is just finishing my first full year, this thread has been great, and has reminded me about just how much advice (good and bad) that I have been given this year.

I have officiated from 3-4th grade kiddies to HS boys JV (this is not news to you veterans). I have tried to make it a point to cover the question of "how close do we want to call the game" question in pregame with my partners. By that I mean, are we calling all travels in the 3-4th grade game? At my level, I think it's still a relevant question to ask the veteran partner, even though the proper answer is that we aren't making adjustments to level of play- a foul is a foul etc...


The quality responses have come from the veteran officials whose judgment and advice I have come to respect during the year from working with them and seeing them as well. That advice was generally more specific- "We won't/can't call all travels at this level, but call the ones where allowing him/her to get away with it results in a basket or affects the play". Travelling outside the arc or where they are not in a position to score might not always be called.

The, um, less-quality responses (in my opinon) have been the ones where the partner says "let's see how it goes" or "don't change anything". Those were the games where we got into trouble because neither of us were on the same page in types of calls to make, and for whatever reason, we couldn't get together on the same page. I then went to my default position, and called the game as I saw it, without regard for what my partner has or hasn't done, other than to know that one of us is going to get guff from coaches for not being consistent. As communication was lacking, the game suffered. Those were the games where I thought I was on my own, my partner looked tired, disinterested and a little annoyed at having a first year partner.

Moving up levels, the best advice I have been given has been to just "call the game". For the less experienced amongst us, it is difficult to determine which player or age of player can absord what amount of contact (the "play through it" theory). I hated playing in games with "ticky tack" foul calls and I don't want to be the guy who calls inconsequential contact.

sorry for the rambing post... I'll stop now.

Z

[Adam]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

By that I mean, are we calling all travels in the 3-4th grade game? At my level, I think it's still a relevant question to ask the veteran partner, even though the proper answer is that we aren't making adjustments to level of play- a foul is a foul etc...

I think it's a great question in this context, and I don't necessarily agree with your "proper answer."

"A foul is a foul" is really misleading. The same contact that is a foul in 7th grade may well not be a foul in 9th grade. It takes a lot less contact at lower levels to create an advantage than it does in high school.

Also, I will adjust to level of play with regard to travels and other violations when we're at the middle school level or below. I tend to apply advantage/disadvantage to violations at this level. There are some officials, however, who disagree with this, so it's good to communicate early and get on the same page.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

And by the way, why hasn't this response generated debate from Jurassic? Jurassic, you're all bent out of shape about trying to call these plays like your partner. Just referee the damn play, right? Well, how is "just call it a charge" any better than "call it the same way as your partner"?

Geeze, calm down, Skippy. Take a Midol or sumthin'. If it'll make you feel better, I'll agree that Mark's statement was just as dumb as yours.

Btw, I'm not "bent out of shape". I'm simply giving you my own point of view in my usual calm, cool and collected, laid back manner.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, I'm not "bent out of shape".

That's not what I heard from Mrs. Jurassic.

At least we agree that "If it's close, go charge" is a bad guideline.

[doubleringer]

Something good that I've heard Rick Hartzel say every time I've seen him speak is, "Think globally, officiate locally." What I take from that is call what I see in my area, but for consistency you have to be aware of what calls have been made in the game. I learned last season that possibly the worst thing you can do is let how your partner is calling the game affect how you call it. I worked a college game and one of my partners made a couple of calls on one team for handchecks and blocks out front. I overthought (not usually a problem for me ) and called a foul I wouldn't usually call to try to look consistent. The coach knew me, knew how I called the game, and got up my rear about the call. In this case, I deserved it for being a moron. The point is, there is a balance between the two modes of thought. Achieving this balance takes some time and experience.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

At least we agree that "If it's close, go charge" is a bad guideline.

I didn't comment because I thought that went without saying.

Now to have a l'il more fun......

Would you say "If it's close, go charge" would be a good guideline if the last close call was a charge?