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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 08:11am
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Foul on Inbounds after Time-out


Just want to refresh my memory.
Sit: A62-B57 both teams in bonus 1-1
B makes 3-pointer (now A62-B60), with 10-seconds left, after ball goes thru basket B immediately calls TO. After TO, A will inbounds under B's basket with right to run the endline. B wants to foul A as quickly as possible to send A to line for 1-1 hoping A misses or only makes 1; so a 3-pt at the buzzer can win or tie. B indicates they want to foul A during inbounds, while clock is still stopped.
Question: at what point do we have intentional foul, if at all? Penalty for intentional is 2-FT plus ball at spot nearest the foul.

Comments?
Thanks
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 08:27am
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Ofcourse, if the defender reaches across the throw in plane and fouls the thrower, it's an intentional foul. 2 shots plus designated spot nearest the foul.
4-19-3 Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 08:31am
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Intentional Foul ???

4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

4.19.3 Situation D: Late in the fourth quarter Team B is trailing by six points. Team B's head coach begins to yell to his or her players to "foul, foul, foul!" B1 responds by (a) grabbing A1 from behind, or (b) reaching for the ball but illegally contacting A1 on the arm. Ruling: In (a), an intentional foul shall be called. In (b), a common foul shall be called as B1 was making a legitimate attempt to "play the ball." Comment: Fouling near the end of a game is an acceptable coaching and playing strategy. Officials must determine if a foul is intentional by judging the fouling act itself, not whether or not the coach instructed a player to perform the act.

From my pregame:
End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn't get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey, or pushes from behind, or bear hugs the offensive player, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

Also: If the defender contacts the ball after breaking the imaginary plane, it is a player technical foul and a team warning will be recorded. If the defender fouls the inbounding player after breaking the imaginary plane, it is an intentional personal foul, and a team warning will be recorded.

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 08:34am.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 09:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfdesigner
Question: at what point do we have intentional foul, if at all?
This is almost purely judgment. If the defense reaches through the endline and fouls the inbounder, then there's not much judgment -- it's an intentional foul. But if they try to foul one of the inbound players, then you have to decide whether the defender was making a legitimate "basketball play". Was the foul part of a play that you normally see at any other time of the game? Was the foul committed because the defender was playing "normal" defense? Or was the defender not even trying to play defense and ONLY committing the foul.

Basketball plays: Attempting to deflect the throw-in pass and hitting the offensive player across the arms; playing "prevent" defense and holding the offensive player as he tries to break to the ball.

Non-basketball plays: Bear-hugging the offensive player; grabbing the jersey and pulling; fouling a player who is nowhere near the play; two-handed push from behind.

Quote:
Penalty for intentional is 2-FT plus ball at spot nearest the foul.
Correct, and the free throws are attempted by the player who was fouled. (Also remember that 3 free throws are awarded for an intentional foul during an unsuccessful 3-point try. But that's obviously not the situation that we're talking about.)
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 11:06am
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For a brief time, NFHS ruled that anytime a coach indicated his players were going to foul, the officials should call an intentional foul once the foul was committed. That little experiment died a quick and necessary death, however; there is no longer any added penalty for the coach's honesty here.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 02:18pm
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Code Word ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
For a brief time, NFHS ruled that anytime a coach indicated his players were going to foul, the officials should call an intentional foul once the foul was committed. That little experiment died a quick and necessary death.
Snaqwells: Did this happen more than 27 years ago. Before I began officiating, in the early 1980's. I coached a middle school basketball team. Whenever the situation dictated, losing near the end of the game, which happened a lot, because, back then, I really didn't know what I was doing, was a terrible coach, and we lost a lot of games, I would yell, "Foul", to my players, trying to stop the clock, slowing down the inevitable, another loss. We were fortunate to have an experienced varsity official officiate our middle school games, he was teacher at the high school, and one time, after a such a game, he took me aside and told me, "BillyMac, you can't be yelling, "Foul", like that, or I'm going to have to call an intentional foul. Come up with some type of code word." I did. Whenever such a situation came up at the end of a game, I would yell, "Steal the ball", to my players, code to foul as soon as possible. I don't recall such a NFHS ruling in the 27 years that I've been officiating, but this may have happened prior to my officiating, when I was a coach. Could you possibly have a citation from so long ago?
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 03:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Snaqwells: Did this happen more than 27 years ago. Before I began officiating, in the early 1980's?

I don't recall such a NFHS ruling in the 27 years that I've been officiating, but this may have happened prior to my officiating, when I was a coach. Could you possibly have a citation from so long ago?
POE #5 from the 2000-01 NFHS rule book said "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when a coach/player says 'Watch, we're going to foul.'." The FED then changed their philosophy in 2005-06 and issued POE #3B which said "Conversely, a coach who yells 'Foul' instructions to his/her team does not mean that the ensuing foul is automatically an intentional foul- even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock."

Those are the citations, straight from the rulebook, Billy. Snaqs wouldn't lie to you.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Snaqwells: Did this happen more than 27 years ago. Before I began officiating, in the early 1980's. I coached a middle school basketball team. Whenever the situation dictated, losing near the end of the game, which happened a lot, because, back then, I really didn't know what I was doing, was a terrible coach, and we lost a lot of games, I would yell, "Foul", to my players, trying to stop the clock, slowing down the inevitable, another loss. We were fortunate to have an experienced varsity official officiate our middle school games, he was teacher at the high school, and one time, after a such a game, he took me aside and told me, "BillyMac, you can't be yelling, "Foul", like that, or I'm going to have to call an intentional foul. Come up with some type of code word." I did. Whenever such a situation came up at the end of a game, I would yell, "Steal the ball", to my players, code to foul as soon as possible. I don't recall such a NFHS ruling in the 27 years that I've been officiating, but this may have happened prior to my officiating, when I was a coach. Could you possibly have a citation from so long ago?
Dude, 27 years ago I going into the 2nd grade and just learning how to play basketball. I'm not even sure I knew what a referee was then. Sorry.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 05:23pm
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Pants On Fire ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
POE #5 from the 2000-01 NFHS rule book said "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when a coach/player says 'Watch, we're going to foul.'." The FED then changed their philosophy in 2005-06 and issued POE #3B which said "Conversely, a coach who yells 'Foul' instructions to his/her team does not mean that the ensuing foul is automatically an intentional foul- even though it is a strategic foul designed to stop the clock."Those are the citations, straight from the rulebook, Billy. Snaqs wouldn't lie to you.
I never suggested that Snaqwells was not telling the truth. I just didn't remember the Point of Emphasis, in force from 2000 to 2005, mandating that we call intentional fouls because the coach is yelling, "Foul". I believed that Snaqwells was a veteran (read old) official who may have remembered something from before I started officiating.

Jurassic Referee: Thanks for the citation.
Snaqwells: I'm sorry if you believed that I was questioning your honesty. I was really questioning my memory.
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Old Sat Jul 26, 2008, 05:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I never suggested that Snaqwells was not telling the truth. I just didn't remember the Point of Emphasis, in force from 2000 to 2005, mandating that we call intentional fouls because the coach is yelling, "Foul". I believed that Snaqwells was a veteran (read old) official who may have remembered something from before I started officiating.

Jurassic Referee: Thanks for the citation.
Snaqwells: I'm sorry if you believed that I was questioning your honesty. I was really questioning my memory.
Nah, I'm just a pup who talks tough.
FWIW, I didn't think you questioning my honesty. I have way too thick skin, but if I'm ever offended, I'll take my concerns private and get it squared away.
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