Strangest call of the tournament

[Bart Tyson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The situation - After A1 has the ball, B1 commits a lane violation. The official inadvertently sounds his whistle:
(a) before A1 starts his shooting motion
(b) After the ball is released
(c) During A1's motion, but before the ball is released.

Ruling: (a) and (c) - ball becomes dead immediately (b) - ball is dead when the free throw ends. "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful."


I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.).

Mark, This case play has nothing to do with a TO.

[rgaudreau]

Devdog...

Shooter did make the first 2... only missed the 3rd one.

As an official, I probably should have corrected the official during the game. If it had happened the other way around to the other team, I would have been standing and howling like the best of them.

Ren

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

No one is awarding two substitute free throws. A1 never got the chance to attempt his first free throw because the T sounded an inadvertent whistle instead of a delayed deadball whistle for B1's free throw violation. A1 still gets to attempt his first free throw but with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal. If A1's free throw is successful we go on to the second free throw. If A1's first free throw is not successful then he gets a substitute free throw followed by the second free throw. Hence, three to make two.

I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.). [/B][/QUOTE]Mark,there is nothing in the rulebook or casebook that will support your stance.There is no such thing as a delayed deadball whistle mentioned anywhere that is applicable to this sitch.There is no TO involved.Team B is not benefiting from it's violation because a substitute FT IS awarded for the violation.What would you call on this play if you blew the whistle,and then an A player violated before the FT was taken,possibly because of the inadvertant whistle?Can A(orB) commit a violation during a dead ball on a FT?I will gladly change my mind if you can find something concrete to cite out of the rules to support your stance.

[Kelvin green]

Three shots was wrong.... No doubt.
I want to walk through this simply and logically.

We never negate a violation or penalty once it is called.

If we truly decide it was an inadvertent whistle, then we put the ball in play using the inadvertent rule which either gives it back to the team with the ball or it is a jump because of control issues.

The question is... Is this an inadvertent whistle or not?
If the whistle is inadvertent then we would just give the ball back to the shooter state the whistle was inadvertent and go on with no violation.

My perspective is that in this case the violation was recognized by the official and called. (The official just did not know how to administer it and blew the whistle)

Since we dont negate violations called, and it was a clear violation, I think you would shoot it, administer violation if he missed it, and then go to the second one.

This sounds like I am agrreing with the NCAA and Mark but the simple logic would leave me to follow that conclusion. Particularly giving the time out scenario as well.

[Bart Tyson]

JR, I think I figured out the problem. You and maybe some others are looking at the rule book 6-7-5. Mark Dexter and I are asking you to look at the Case book 6-7-5.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No one is awarding two substitute free throws. A1 never got the chance to attempt his first free throw because the T sounded an inadvertent whistle instead of a delayed deadball whistle for B1's free throw violation. A1 still gets to attempt his first free throw but with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal. If A1's free throw is successful we go on to the second free throw. If A1's first free throw is not successful then he gets a substitute free throw followed by the second free throw. Hence, three to make two.

I do not have my rules books in front of me but the NFHS Casebook play involves a timeout, and the NCAA A.R. deals with this play directly. But the logic applied to both plays is the same. Team B cannot benefit from its free throw violation because of the timeout request by Team A (NFHS Casebook Play) or the inadvertent whistle by the T (NCAA A.R.). [/B]

Mark,there is nothing in the rulebook or casebook that will support your stance.There is no such thing as a delayed deadball whistle mentioned anywhere that is applicable to this sitch.There is no TO involved.Team B is not benefiting from it's violation because a substitute FT IS awarded for the violation.What would you call on this play if you blew the whistle,and then an A player violated before the FT was taken,possibly because of the inadvertant whistle?Can A(orB) commit a violation during a dead ball on a FT?I will gladly change my mind if you can find something concrete to cite out of the rules to support your stance. [/B][/QUOTE]


The inadvertent before the release of the first free throw attempt kills everything. No ifs, ands, or butts!! The only way that A1 would shoot three free throws is, after the T explained is goof, A1's first free throw, is shot with the officials showing the delayed deadball signal and if A1 misses this free throw, A1 gets a substitute free throw for his first free throw. After the substitute free throw is attempted, A1 then attempts his second free throw.

The phrase 3 to make 2 is just a colorful description of what is happeneing. Chuck E. is probably more correct in using 2 to make 1 as a description.

But in any case, the free throw violation by B1 must be recognized and penalized if A1 misses his first attempt.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
JR, I think I figured out the problem. You and maybe some others are looking at the rule book 6-7-5. Mark Dexter and I are asking you to look at the Case book 6-7-5.

Bart,both the rulebook and the casebook are saying the exact same thing.That's Casebook 6-7-5A.The inadvertant whistle makes the ball dead immediately.The initial FT also ends with the inadvertant whistle.You cannot score a FT with a dead ball.These are all rules that I quoted,and are plainly written.You can't ignore them by using a delayed violation signal.The FT is unsuccessful because the whistle went early for the violation.The replacement FT is for the wrongly whistled violation.I have not to date seen anything quoted out of the rule or case book that will allow for anything different.If someone can find something,I'll certainly be glad to consider it.I've been wrong before,but I don't think I am in this case.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
JR, I think I figured out the problem. You and maybe some others are looking at the rule book 6-7-5. Mark Dexter and I are asking you to look at the Case book 6-7-5.

Again, I'll say it -- rules are denoted with dashes (e.g., 6-7-5) and cases with periods / dots (e.g., 6.7.5). This is actually listed in the case book -- FOreword, page 5.

BTW, I agree with Mark T.D. -- the whistle doesn't cancel the violation. If A misses the throw after play is resumed, s/he gets another throw because of the violation.

I'm not sure that's the way I would have written the rule, but that's the way I'll enforce it given how it is written.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Bart,both the rulebook and the casebook are saying the exact same thing.That's Casebook 6-7-5A.The inadvertant whistle makes the ball dead immediately.The initial FT also ends with the inadvertant whistle.You cannot score a FT with a dead ball.These are all rules that I quoted,and are plainly written.You can't ignore them by using a delayed violation signal.The FT is unsuccessful because the whistle went early for the violation.The replacement FT is for the wrongly whistled violation.I have not to date seen anything quoted out of the rule or case book that will allow for anything different.If someone can find something,I'll certainly be glad to consider it.I've been wrong before,but I don't think I am in this case.

JR I'm confuesed. I know so whats new. Maybe we are saying the same thing. The rules say, B1 violates the lane, official whistles, no shot was taken, then the official gets the ball and reamin. the ball to the FT'er, and he misses, then the official gives him another shot for the violation.
If you disagree with this, then you are disagreeing with the case play, which is the rule. Are we saying the same thing?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Again, I'll say it -- rules are denoted with dashes (e.g., 6-7-5) and cases with periods / dots (e.g., 6.7.5). This is actually listed in the case book -- FOreword, page 5.

BTW, I agree with Mark T.D. -- the whistle doesn't cancel the violation. If A misses the throw after play is resumed, s/he gets another throw because of the violation.

I'm not sure that's the way I would have written the rule, but that's the way I'll enforce it given how it is written.

Bob,the whistle doesn't cancel the violation.The whistle does cancel the FT if the ball isn't in the air.The penalty for the violation and cancelled FT is a substitute FT,just like the case book says(even though the language is ambiguous).If you award the foul shooter 2 replacement FT's,aren't you penalizing B twice for committing 1 violation?Or awarding 1 shot for the violation and a possible extra shot for the official's mistake?What do you do if A then violates after the inadvertant whistle but before the FT is in the air,or while the first FT is in the air?By the logic that Mark is using,you would cancel one FT but still have a replacement FT.In other words,you have a violation by each team,but B still gets screwed because of the inadvertant whistle.I don't think that really is the intent of the rule.There is also no such animal like a "delayed dead ball" that you can use after the whistle is blown.You have to re-administer the FT to make the ball alive again.As I said before,I might be wrong-but I'd like to see a AR on this one before I admit it.

[Bart Tyson]

JR, 1st I don't think you are canceling a FT that was never taking. But, I think it is a moot point since the case play gives the procedure as i stated earlier. What is "AR"?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
JR, 1st I don't think you are canceling a FT that was never taking. But, I think it is a moot point since the case play gives the procedure as i stated earlier. What is "AR"?

AR is "approved ruling",Bart.I should have been clearer.It just means I'd like to see someone from the FED rules committee issue an interpretation on this.I've ran this by three guys that I know that are rules interpreters in their areas.Two say that I am right-one says I'm wrong.All three say that there is no way that you can have a "delayed dead ball" in this sitch because the whistle killed the original FT if the ball is still in the shooter's hands.The two guys that agreed with me had the same concern that I did.A could commit a subsequent FT violation,giving one violation each way-but A would still get their original FT repeated.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

AR is "approved ruling",Bart.I should have been clearer.It just means I'd like to see someone from the FED rules committee issue an interpretation on this.I've ran this by three guys that I know that are rules interpreters in their areas.Two say that I am right-one says I'm wrong.All three say that there is no way that you can have a "delayed dead ball" in this sitch because the whistle killed the original FT if the ball is still in the shooter's hands.The two guys that agreed with me had the same concern that I did.A could commit a subsequent FT violation,giving one violation each way-but A would still get their original FT repeated.

Now that doesn't sit well with me, you are worried that A could commit a violation after the whistle has killed the play and caused a dead ball situation. I don't get it. I have been trying to ignore this and make it go away , now I am going to have to go get my case book, I guess.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by devdog69


Now that doesn't sit well with me, you are worried that A could commit a violation after the whistle has killed the play and caused a dead ball situation. I don't get it. I have been trying to ignore this and make it go away , now I am going to have to go get my case book, I guess. [/B]

I'm guessing JR means AFTER the official gives the ball back to the shooter for the original FT, which the player never took. JR's concern is,(help me out JR if i am wrong) the FT'er gets his original FT after the whistle, which is the 1st. of a 2for1 b/c of the violation. Now, the teammate violates, so we have another whistle that kills the 1st shot, but b/c of the original violation the shooter still gets another shot.

If this was to happen then i would cancel the second shot as well.

[Bart Tyson]

JR, if what you are saying is true then how do you explain the last sentence of case play 6.7.5 situation( is this better BOB )? "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful". In situation A,C, the shot was never taken so you cannot say it was unsuccessful.