Strangest call of the tournament

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

NFHS Casebook Play R6.S7.A5: A1 is at the free-thorw line for the second of two attempts. After the ball is at A1's disposal, B1 commits a lane violation. The administering official inadvertently sounds his/her whistle: (a) before A1 starts the free-throw motion; or (b) after the ball has been released; or (c) during A1's motion but before the release of the ball. RULING: Whether or not the whistle was sounded inadvertently it has the same result. In (a) and (c), the ball becomes dead immediately. In (b), the whistle does not cause the ball to become dead until the free throw ends. Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free-throw attempt by A1 is unseuccessful. (R4-S2-A3)


What this Casebook Play is saying is that the in all three cases B1's violation is not to be ingnored, and in (a) and (c) A1 has yet to attempt the second of two attempts, therefore, when A1 makes is second attempt the officials are to use the delayed deadball signal (B1 has committed a free throw violation) and if the attempt is not successful, A1 is awarded a substitute throw. This logic is the same used in the NCAA A.R. referenced in an earlier posting as well as in a NFHS Casebook Play (which I have seen before but cannot find at the moment) when B1 commits a free throw violation during and instead of the official inadvertently sounding his/her whistle as in (a) or (c), Team A decides to request a timeout, which is granted. The granting of a timeout per Team A's request does not erase B1's free throw violation. After the timeout is over, A1's free throw attempt is administered in the exact same way as in the Casebook Play R6.S7.A5.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
JR, if what you are saying is true then how do you explain the last sentence of case play 6.7.5 situation( is this better BOB )? "Because B1 violated, in all cases, a substitute throw is awarded if the free throw attempt by A1 is unsuccessful". In situation A,C, the shot was never taken so you cannot say it was unsuccessful.

Bart,Rule 4-20-3 says a FT ends when the ball becomes dead.Rule6-7-5 says that the ball becomes dead when an official's whistle is blown.Casebook 6.7.5A says the same thing.According to this language,the FT was taken.It was ended by the inadvertant whistle.Now you have to straighten out the mess.Because B1 violated,you can ignore the inadvertant whistle and readminister the foul shot by giving a replacement FT for the violation.This(I think)fits the language of CB6.7.5.As I said,if you do otherwise you could possibly be penalizing B twice for committing one violation,or awarding an extra shot for the official's screwup..If A commits a FT violation at any time after the inadvertant whistle,but before the first replacement FT ends,A will still get a free FT--even though both teams have violated.That doesn't seem to fit the spirit and intent of the rules.

[Bart Tyson]

OK, I understand what you are saying. It takes me awhile.
Different situation using your interptation, A1 has the ball at the FT line, Official blows whistle for subs., ( official made a mistake, didn't realize the player had the ball), well A1, i just ended your FT. Sorry

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[QUOTE
Because B1 violated,you can ignore the inadvertant whistle and readminister the foul shot by giving a replacement FT for the violation.This(I think)fits the language of CB6.7.5.As I said,if you do otherwise you could possibly be penalizing B twice for committing one violation,or awarding an extra shot for the official's screwup.

By your interptation I think A1 is the one who loeses by not getting the 2 for 1. If the official had not blown the whistle A1 would have 2 to make 1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

Bart's rule reference applies to both NCAA Men's/Women's as well as NFHS. Why, there is nothing in either rules codes that differ that would not allow a different interpretation. This logic goes back to when the NBCUSC was replaced by the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, and the casebook plays of the NBCUSC was accepted by both Committees. [/B][/QUOTE]Mark,the language above is where we disagree.I am saying that the first actual FT ended with the inadvertant whistle.It was unsuccessful because of the inadvertant whistle.The next FT is the replacement FT for the violation AND unsuccessful FT.You don't penalize the inadvertant whistle by awarding an extra FT for it.That fits the language of CB6.7.5A,I think.The maximum is two shots after the inadvertant whistle(barring further lane violations),not three FT's.The case book play you are looking for is CB9.1.4C.That play is different because AI is on the line for his original FT after the TO,not a replacement FT.The TO doesn't end the first FT,and it is still subject to the B violation.In the first case,the inadvertant whistle ended the first FT.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK, I understand what you are saying. It takes me awhile.
Different situation using your interptation, A1 has the ball at the FT line, Official blows whistle for subs., ( official made a mistake, didn't realize the player had the ball), well A1, i just ended your FT. Sorry

Yup,you ended his FT,Bart.Now you give him a replacement FT for your screw-up.If B violates during the replacement FT,you're gonna penalize that,too.What you aren't gonna do is give A an extra FT somewhere along the line.Good thread,eh?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

By your interptation I think A1 is the one who loeses by not getting the 2 for 1. If the official had not blown the whistle A1 would have 2 to make 1.

Bart,I gotta agree with that basic premise.The problem is that you can screw B,also,if you throw an extra FT in for A.The key question is whether the first FT after the inadvertant whistle is regarded as a replacement FT(with the B violation applied) or as the the initial FT(with the B violation delayed).That's what I'd like to see an approved ruling on,because that could determine the number of FTs.

[Bart Tyson]

Good discussion JR.

[Schmidt MJ]

Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this one. First, a free throw begins when the ball is bounced to the free thrower. Second, the free throw ends when a)the throw is successful, b)the throw is obviously unsuccessful, or c) the ball becomes dead by rule. In this case, since the ball was not in the air yet, the ball became dead by rule when the official blew the inadvertent whistle for the lane violation. Since the free throw began legally and ended legally without being "successful", then I would think that the next free throw attempted when play resumes is the substitute throw. Therefore, the player actually only "shoots" 2 free throws(the substitute and the 2nd originally awarded throw) even though 3 free throws are actually started. I would think the same logic would apply if team A called (excuse me, I mean requested) a timeout after a violation by B but before the FT was in the air. This subject came up at a beginners camp I attended a couple of years ago but the evaluators never really reached a clear concensus. Basically they were having the same disagreements we are having here.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

What is so difficult about this play? NFHS Casebook Play R6.S7.A5 is exactly like the posted play. The Play even tells when the ball becomes dead and when it remains live. This is an open and shut play to administer if there is an inadvertent whistle.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Schmidt MJ
Okay, I'm going to take a stab at this one. First, a free throw begins when the ball is bounced to the free thrower. Second, the free throw ends when a)the throw is successful, b)the throw is obviously unsuccessful, or

c) the ball becomes dead by rule. In this case, since the ball was not in the air yet, the ball became dead by rule when the official blew the inadvertent whistle for the lane violation.

Since the free throw began legally and ended legally without being "successful",

In c) you say "dead by rule" then you use the word "successful".

You can't have it both ways. the FT can't be unsuccessful if you don't even shoot it. This is important because the case play says " FT attempt by A1 is unsuccessful.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

In c) you say "dead by rule" then you use the word "successful".

You can't have it both ways. the FT can't be unsuccessful if you don't even shoot it. This is important because the case play says " FT attempt by A1 is unsuccessful.

Bart,if the freethrow shooter or a team-mate is called for a violation before the FT is attempted,you have an unsuccessful FT that was never shot.It was unsucessful because the official blew his whistle for the violation before the shot.That's backed up by the rules that I quoted before.In this case,it is unsucessful because of the inadvertant whistle for the B violation.Same concept--same rules apply.Same problem is still there,too.How many replacement shots do we give for the B violation yet to be penalized?MTDSr is 100% sure he's right.I'm not blessed with the same confidence(that's nothing new with some of the FED terminology),but obviously I think he may be wrong.The good thing about this thread is that I really CAN'T lose.If I'm right,I KNOW how to handle it properly if it comes up.If I'm wrong,I've LEARNED how to handle it properly if it comes up.No matter what,I come out ahead.

[Bart Tyson]

So how are you going to get the NF rules committee to change the wording?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Bart,if the freethrow shooter or a team-mate is called for a violation before the FT is attempted,you have an unsuccessful FT that was never shot.

I disagree on this. If the violation or inadvertant whistle happens before the FTer has started his/her motion, the try hasn't started. So, there can't be an unsuccessful try. You might, if A violates, penalize by not allowing the try, but that's different.

The last sentence in 6.7.5 says, "in all cases (meaning a, b, and c in the case) a substitute throw is awarded if the freethrow attempt by A1 is unsuccessful." In part (a) of the case, A1 has not had an attempt, so the statement must be telling us to allow another "first" attempt, then penalize for the violation, if needed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[/B]

BkbBallRef and JR are wrong on this play.

The T made a mistake by sounding his whistle to soon, but the violation does not disappear. A1 gets three to make two (remember that rule in the NBA). The correct procedure is for the T and the L to give the delayed dead ball signal while A1 is shooting his first free throw. If the first free throw is successful then A1 only gets one more free throw. If the first free throw is not, then A1 gets two more free throws.

[/B][/QUOTE]Bob J.,I can see where you're coming from in your interpretation of the wording of the casebook play.Bart was saying the same thing.The problem that I still have is the literal interpretation of "successful" and "unsuccessful",and the context that they are being used in.If you take Mark's reply above,and if A commits a FT violation before the first FT with the delayed violation being applied is successful or unsuccessful,what exactly are you going to call?If I am reading Mark's reply above correctly,he is saying A1 will still get two more FT's because that FT was unsuccessful.This happens even though A committed the violation that made it unsuccessful,because we now have off-setting violations by each team.If someone can come up with something that doesn't make me give A an extra FT in this case,I'd be the happiest little dinosaur around.It just doesn't seem fair. I'm just wondering if the CB play is worded properly to attain the real intent of the rule.