Some help. AUU tourney situation

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's late and I just finished working an AAU tournament this weeked myself (by coincidence I happened to work the championship game)

Are you sure weren't the friend of this assignor...working TRef21's games?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TRef21

You know dealing with big guys at the varsity and college level, you talk to them once, they usually get the idea. Then if they get stuck with one, the coach usually pulls them out or screams at them. I guess was too nice with this one.

That sums up nicely the problems that you had in that particular game.

You should have dealt with the players exactly as you wrote above. Give them one warning, and if they don't listen to that warning, then issue the immediate "T". If you do it that way, no one in the gym (including the players, coaches, tournament director and your assignor) can possibly have any legitimate complaint about your actions. All the extra talking and warning that you did ended up serving absolutely no purpose at all, did it?

If you take care of bidness properly, then you NEVER have any worries about the players, coaches and tournament directors. You KNOW that you handled the situation exactly the way that it should have been handled. And, as for your assignor, you can now ask him if he had any legitimate reason to take you off of the game, other than keeping a tournament director happy. If he can't come up with anything, put it down as a learning experience and don't put yourself in that position again with that particular assignor....unless you do AAU ball strictly for the money, like a lot of officials.

Jmo.

[JoeTheRef]

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

[Scrapper1]

TRef, there's a lot of really good information and advice in this thread. And I honestly don't have a whole lot to add to it. I think Jurassic, and especially JRutledge, have really made some excellent points.

The only thing that I would add is that these "player management" skills that we're discussing don't just come naturally to everybody. I've been officiating for about 15 years, and do some college ball, and it's still sometimes a struggle for me at the college level. The good news is that AAU is the perfect place to work on it. (At that level, my experience has been that the best policy is generally, "whack early and whack often". )

[Back In The Saddle]

When it comes to "player management" you have to consider time and place as well as your audience. I've had two really painful lessons in that in the past few months. In a "real" game setting (regular season HS, etc.) a good team with a good coach is usually fairly easy to manage. If you're having trouble with a player, the coach usually sees it and pulls the player.

But in wreck leagues and summer ball, all bets are off. The mouthy punk kid is just as likely as not to have a mouthy punk coach who doesn't understand the first thing about disciplining his little superstars. Trying to manage punks by getting in their grill doesn't shut them down, it leads to escalated punky behavior. They don't understand they're getting a break; they think they're right (as always) and you're just attacking them. You can't fix stupid!

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked. Eventually he'll stop doing it. Or else he proves himself to be such a stupid punk over time that no good coach will pick him up for any level of ball that you and I want to be working. Either way, we don't have to deal with his punky behavior any longer.

Bottom line: whack the little **** when he deserves it. And if the coaches won't take care of business, and the TD and assignor won't back you, then screw 'em. You don't want to be working in that situation then anyway.

Just my bitter $0.02

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked.

English translation: "Whack early, whack often."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Yes my officiating is better than my writing skills. You state that I'm confrontational with the players and probably cause most of the situations that end up in technical fouls and ejections. So if you were in the situation I was in and heard that player say what he said during the game you would do nothing? My partner assessed the first technical, I had two opportunities which warranted a 2nd technical foul and warned the player before acting. I don't understand how that is unprofessional or shows that I lack maturity on the court. I don't understand how telling a player that he is on the edge/borderline is confrontational. Can you please elaborate on your statement so I can grow from this experience and learn from my fellow colleagues in the forum?

You should've ejected him and then you wouldn't have had future problems.

But thank you for my annual reminder why I've stopped working basketball after my season ends in March.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Exactly. Assignors are not your friends -- they are likely getting a cut of your game fee and, in general, they aren't going to throw away income to back one referee, regardless of how good you are. It's a bidness.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

When it comes to "player management" you have to consider time and place as well as your audience. I've had two really painful lessons in that in the past few months. In a "real" game setting (regular season HS, etc.) a good team with a good coach is usually fairly easy to manage. If you're having trouble with a player, the coach usually sees it and pulls the player.

But in wreck leagues and summer ball, all bets are off. The mouthy punk kid is just as likely as not to have a mouthy punk coach who doesn't understand the first thing about disciplining his little superstars. Trying to manage punks by getting in their grill doesn't shut them down, it leads to escalated punky behavior. They don't understand they're getting a break; they think they're right (as always) and you're just attacking them. You can't fix stupid!

You can only demonstrate to the punk that his behavior consistently leads to an undesirable outcome. Eventually the punk learns that no matter how "unfair" it is, when he pops off he gets whacked. Eventually he'll stop doing it. Or else he proves himself to be such a stupid punk over time that no good coach will pick him up for any level of ball that you and I want to be working. Either way, we don't have to deal with his punky behavior any longer.

Bottom line: whack the little **** when he deserves it. And if the coaches won't take care of business, and the TD and assignor won't back you, then screw 'em. You don't want to be working in that situation then anyway.

Just my bitter $0.02

I don't work rec ball anymore, but I never gave warnings during rec or AAU ball. I just whacked early and often.

When someone asked why I didn't give a warning, I said "That was the warning. If he does it again, he's ejected."

That always rubbed people the wrong way at first, but it's amazing after a few weeks how people come around and realize there's more basketball and less BS than before and it actually makes it better for everyone involved, including the site admins and the coaches.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TRef21

On Saturday, my partner who I worked with again today where working the game which the host AAU team was playing. They had this one no.24 who was a hell of a player but had a bad bad bad attitude. He would complain about every call that was made on him, and felt that he could do no wrong. After a call in the first half my partner dinged him for, the kid said something so he gets stuck.

Sounds like this T took too long.

Originally Posted by TRef21

Later in the second half as we are lining up for Ft's no. 24 tells one his players to " Chin Check" the other guy. I told the kid why are you telling him to chin check him. No. 24 responed, ref you don't even no what a chin check is. I was like you know, I'm older than you and know what it is and don't tell your teammate that. Now you are on the edge.

This conversation was not necessary or helpful, it seems. Just use the information to keep a better eye on post action.

Originally Posted by TRef21

So with a minute left his team is down by 2. no. 3 black fouls and we are in the bonus. As we are lining up for ft's, no.3 black starts saying things about the call and I was like, " What did you say"?

"What did you say" rarely ends well. If you feel the talking needs to get addressed, I'd find a different way of doing it.

Originally Posted by TRef21

He was like nothing ref, I said thats right you said nothing. So now other guys are complaining and no. 24 is still talking when it doesn't even relate to him. I was like you know something guys ( to both teams), you guys aren't in the NBA and not that great yet, so stop complaining.

None of this was necessary or helpful, it seems. In fact, as has been said, it seems a bit insulting and counterproductive. No surprise things went south from there:

Originally Posted by TRef21

No. 24 now pops off again and still won't stop. I was like now you are borderline.

Borderline? This kid crossed the border a long time before this. Your conversations would have ended and your troubles may have been avoided had you stuck him sooner and more frequently.

Originally Posted by TRef21

Still won't be quiet and keeps ranting and raving, so my partner and I at the same blow the whistles and ding him. I tech him, pitch him, and his team loses by 5.

Again, this took too long to get to.

Originally Posted by TRef21

After the game his coach was like no 24. said you told him to his face that he was sorry. I was like coach why would I tell a player that he was a sorry player. I'm more professional than that. He was like I have known you for a couple of years, and I know the kid doesn't lie. I was like you know coach you know I'm more professional than that, and I never told him that.

This entire conversation would have been avoided had you not spent so much time trying to talk these kids out of technical fouls. You told them they "weren't that great...." That's what 24 heard, and to him it's the same thing as "you're sorry." He just paraphrased you, and did it relatively accurately it seems.
Frankly, I'd have pulled you, too; for talking too much.

Originally Posted by TRef21

As an assigner aren't you supposed to have the officials back? So what if they are pissed, let us work, but don't pull us off. I told the assigner i wasn't going to do any more favors for him (like this tourney) and just stick to my college ball ( since he assigns during the season and what not), and this is absolute B.S. You are supposed to have our backs. I see where we stand. I do that right thing and pitch kid after being more than generous with warnings after the first tech and we get screwed. See we don't do the right thing we lose control of the game and something happens and we get screwed. We do that right thing and we still get screwed ( in my situation). What is your guys take on my situation.

What do you guys think about the situation

I think you're assigner covered his a$$ after you forced his hand. If this guy assigns some of your season college games, don't be surprised if your workload gets decreased next year.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

In regards to the assignor, if a High School or College AD or coach or a AAU host team administrator tells an assignor I don't want JoeRef at my school anymore because of XYZ reasons, chances are my assignor will probably not send me there. Its a business. Is it right? I don't think so, but it is a business. Just my .02.

Can't completely agree.

It sureasheck is a business....but....assignors have to provide bodies(hopefully but not necessarily always capable bodies ) to fill available games. Assignors therefore depend on the officials that work for them to be available for those games. Unfortunately, in most states there also seems to be an annual shortage of officials. If an assignor starts to lose good people because of a failure to keep his officials fairly content, he/she ain't gonna be the assignor for very long imo.

It doesn't do any assignor any good to have a ton of games available unless he can provide officials to do those games. And you aren't going to keep your officials or have officials go the extra mile for you when you need them to if you're crapping on them like tref got crapped on. If a legitimate complaint is received about an official, fine, the assignor should deal with it. An official righteously taking care of bidness ain't ever a legitimate complaint though imo.

Officials make their assignors look good, not vice-versa.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Can't completely agree.

It sureasheck is a business....but....assignors have to provide bodies(hopefully but not necessarily always capable bodies ) to fill available games. Assignors therefore depend on the officials that work for them to be available for those games. Unfortunately, in most states there also seems to be an annual shortage of officials. If an assignor starts to lose good people because of a failure to keep his officials fairly content, he/she ain't gonna be the assignor for very long imo.

It doesn't do any assignor any good to have a ton of games available unless he can provide officials to do those games. And you aren't going to keep your officials or have officials go the extra mile for you when you need them to if you're crapping on them like tref got crapped on. If a legitimate complaint is received about an official, fine, the assignor should deal with it. An official righteously taking care of bidness ain't ever a legitimate complaint though imo.

Officials make their assignors look good, not vice-versa.

I like your words.

[rockyroad]

As scrappy-doo said, there's lots of good info in this thread concerning game management skills...what I have learned over the years ( in reffing and in teaching middle school kids) is that I will NEVER win a "banter-battle" with the kids on the court or in the classroom. So I set my boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed there are consequences...the players and students appreciate that and know how far they can go and they actually like the comfort level that knowledge brings. To suddenly have an official who gets mouthy back at them is like throwing gas on their little testosterone fire - it just gets them hotter and madder and they take it further - and then we look bad because we said this or that...life is much simple when you just administer the consequences for poor behavior and not worry about trying to "teach the kid a lesson" so to speak.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

...what I have learned over the years ( in reffing and in teaching middle school kids) is that I will NEVER win a "banter-battle" with the kids on the court or in the classroom. So I set my boundaries and when those boundaries are crossed there are consequences...the players and students appreciate that and know how far they can go and they actually like the comfort level that knowledge brings. To suddenly have an official who gets mouthy back at them is like throwing gas on their little testosterone fire - it just gets them hotter and madder and they take it further - and then we look bad because we said this or that...life is much simple when you just administer the consequences for poor behavior and not worry about trying to "teach the kid a lesson" so to speak.

That's true for the "kids" at all levels...going up and into their 40's also....

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sounds like this T took too long. This conversation was not necessary or helpful, it seems. Just use the information to keep a better eye on post action.

"What did you say" rarely ends well. If you feel the talking needs to get addressed, I'd find a different way of doing it. None of this was necessary or helpful, it seems. In fact, as has been said, it seems a bit insulting and counterproductive. No surprise things went south from there: Borderline? This kid crossed the border a long time before this. Your conversations would have ended and your troubles may have been avoided had you stuck him sooner and more frequently. Again, this took too long to get to.
This entire conversation would have been avoided had you not spent so much time trying to talk these kids out of technical fouls. You told them they "weren't that great...." That's what 24 heard, and to him it's the same thing as "you're sorry." He just paraphrased you, and did it relatively accurately it seems.
Frankly, I'd have pulled you, too; for talking too much.


I think you're assigner covered his a$$ after you forced his hand. If this guy assigns some of your season college games, don't be surprised if your workload gets decreased next year.

Nope he doesn't assign any of my college games.