I blew the call....

[Bearfanmike20]

forth qut... 6th grade league championship...

2.4 seconds left white scores. Blue coach is screaming at me how I cost him the championship.


rewind to about a minute left... both coaches are sceaming about how we aren't calling enough. I do somthing.. not in the book. I go up to both of them and say coaches... I'll talk about calls but dont scream at me. Now.. I should have T'd them up right there, but it was a tight game for the championship and I figured.. I'd warn them.

fast foward now to the 2.4 seconds... What happened before that is white took the ball up the court.. passed to the top of the key, and then a pass went inside right away to the paint and that player scored. Blue coach screaming for a travel from the player at the top of the key.. now.. I didn't see it.. literaly.. my view was obstructed and by the time I got a better one.. the ball was out.. so it could have happened I dont know.. But I'm not going to call somthing I didn't see... reguardless of the reason why I didn't see it. Anyway.. blue loses the ball on the inbound.. soposedly another missed call....

so thats when I get..

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..

Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

[RefTip]

BeerFanmike20,

I work quite a bit of youth ball because I really enjoy the kids, so I've been in your shoes . This year I employed a new technique with youth ball and it worked great all year long. Coach's / Captains meetings ( used in all games ) : I tell the coaches that " I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box . IF things get heated then I will ask the assistant coach to sit and we will follow HS rules." I tell the kids that when we blow the whistle to immediately let go of the ball b/c we've already made our decision and we don't want anyone to get hurt.

If a coach gets out of line or " chirpy " I then bench the AC and follow my normal routine : Stop sign ....then technical ........... Once the AC has been benched I don't hesitate to T the coach up if needed.

This pre-game meeting has really made a dramatic difference in how the coaches and kids behave. Most of the " coaches" do not have a clue that the AC can't stand or what the coach's box is. So what it has done has educated them somewhat, and set an expectation of how things will go if things get " heated ".

My first youth tournament this year ( using this method ) I had my first T of the year and my first compliment . Parents of both the winning and losing team liked that I " took control " of the game.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know what worked for me. Again, after I bench the AC I don't give them an inch.

Tip

BTW - I guess all of the kids made their FT's and didn't miss any layups --- but you cost them the game ????

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

you'll never work one of my games again".

Hahahaha....from a sixth grade coach? How will you sleep at night?

As I've said before, similar to you, I've kicked myself more for the T's I didn't give as opposed to the one's I did.

Live and learn! Get em next time!

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

forth qut... 6th grade league championship...

2.4 seconds left white scores. Blue coach is screaming at me how I cost him the championship.


rewind to about a minute left... both coaches are sceaming about how we aren't calling enough. I do somthing.. not in the book. I go up to both of them and say coaches... I'll talk about calls but dont scream at me. Now.. I should have T'd them up right there, but it was a tight game for the championship and I figured.. I'd warn them.

fast foward now to the 2.4 seconds... What happened before that is white took the ball up the court.. passed to the top of the key, and then a pass went inside right away to the paint and that player scored. Blue coach screaming for a travel from the player at the top of the key.. now.. I didn't see it.. literaly.. my view was obstructed and by the time I got a better one.. the ball was out.. so it could have happened I dont know.. But I'm not going to call somthing I didn't see... reguardless of the reason why I didn't see it. Anyway.. blue loses the ball on the inbound.. soposedly another missed call....

so thats when I get..

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..

Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

You can always ref soccer..........

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

We often learn by our mistakes. I won't comment on the first possible technical foul, but I will certainly comment on the second: "You cost us the championship. You'll never work one of my games again". For me, this would be the easiest techncial foul that I've ever called. I might have to think about it for a split second, or two, but I might even go as far as a flagrant technical foul. Because it's flagrant, maybe some type of league rule would have some administrator look into this, or perhaps even make him, or her, sit out a game next season.

And, for your information, I have a pretty long fuse. Over sixty games this year, and not a single technical foul given to a coach. I can't really think of a warning, or a "stop sign", either. Either I was very lucky, or I'm losing my touch. I'm doing the Special Olypics Unified Games later this week. One more chance for me to T-up a coach, and maybe I'll even use that non-NFHS, baseball-style, you're outta here signal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Assuming the coaches hadn't been on you all game, your first warning sounds like a good way to handle the situation. It's a tense time in an important game, you've got to expect some emotions. You addressed the adult's bad behavior directly and gave them the opportunity to get it under control. And you did it in a way that didn't negatively impact the kids.

As for the second T, the coach deserved it. But... Might the discretion you excercised have actually been the right answer? Would the T have served any useful purpose? Would it have made the game better? Would it have gotten the coach under control? Would it have affected the outcome? Would it have righted some wrong?

Or, in the last game of the season, that's already been decided, and with less than three seconds on the clock, would it have only made an emotional situation more emotional? What if the coach really went off at you after getting the T? Are you prepared to toss him? With three seconds left? What if he refused to leave, then what? Forfeit the game?

I just can't see any possible positive outcome from dropping a T on this idiot at this point in this game. IMHO sometimes the best answer is to leave the T in your pocket and let the game end.

Just my $0.02

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

2.4 seconds left white scores. Blue coach is screaming at me how I cost him the championship.

2.4? Nah.

Get in, get done, get out.

[Damian]

Happened yesterday. 6th grade championship game. White has two point lead with less then 30 seconds and bringing the ball up court. Coach is screaming to foul. Dribbler makes good move in back court, gets around defense and is going up court. Defense is chasing him to foul with arm extended all the way out reaching for his back. Finally catches him and pushes in back. Of course I called intentional foul. Coach is like "you got to be kidding". White makes both free throws, gets the ball, gets fouled again, makes the next two (now up by 6). Game is basically over.

After game assistant coach is yapping how I took the game away from the kids. My thought is what about the other kids. You know the ones that were playing better basketball and were winning, beating the defense, and making free throws. I didn't talk to any of the coaches though. Just thought about it to myself.

[BillyMac]

Push from behind with no apparent play on the ball? From your description, it sounds, most likely, intentional to me.

You could probably add jersey grab and bear hug, to push from behind, as fouls that are most likely intentional, especially, but not limited to, fouls near the end of the game, intended to stop the clock.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Hahahaha....from a sixth grade coach? How will you sleep at night?

As I've said before, similar to you, I've kicked myself more for the T's I didn't give as opposed to the one's I did.

Live and learn! Get em next time!

I agree.

btw, you should have told him you're working towards the day when you won't have to take his games anymore.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

As for the second T, the coach deserved it. But... Might the discretion you exercised have actually been the right answer? Would the T have served any useful purpose? Would it have made the game better? Would it have gotten the coach under control? Would it have affected the outcome? Would it have righted some wrong? Or, in the last game of the season, that's already been decided, and with less than three seconds on the clock, would it have only made an emotional situation more emotional? What if the coach really went off at you after getting the T? Are you prepared to toss him? With three seconds left? What if he refused to leave, then what? Forfeit the game? I just can't see any possible positive outcome from dropping a T on this idiot at this point in this game.

From me: "I might even go as far as a flagrant technical foul. Because it's flagrant, maybe some type of league rule would have some administrator look into this, or perhaps even make him, or her, sit out a game next season."

Plus, a technical foul at this point in the game, or at any point in the game, will send the coach the message that "You cost us the championship. You'll never work one of my games again" is totally unacceptable behavior, which might help the next official that has the unfortunate experience to officiate this coach's next game, even if it's next year. It also sends a a message to all the players, and the fans, that conduct like this is unacceptable.

"Might the discretion you exercised have actually been the right answer?" Maybe.
"Would the T have served any useful purpose?" Yes, see above.
"Would it have gotten the coach under control?" No, but he wouldn't be in the gym any longer.
"Would it have affected the outcome?" Absolutely not.
"Would it have righted some wrong?" Yes, see above.
"Would it have only made an emotional situation more emotional?" Yes, but he would be emotional, After twenty-seven years, I'm pretty good at controlling my emotions.
"What if the coach really went off at you after getting the T?" My technical would probably have been flagrant. If it weren't, he would have gotten a second direct one and been tossed, hopefully by my partner.
"Are you prepared to toss him?" Yes, probably with the first technical being flagrant.
"With three seconds left?" Yes, three seconds, thirty one minutes, anytime. "You cost us the championship. You'll never work one of my games again" is totally unacceptable behavior, anytime.
"What if he refused to leave, then what?" Easy. Pick a fair time for him to speak to his assistant, let's say thirty seconds. Have the timekeeper put that time on the clock. You, or your partner tell the coach he has thirty seconds to vacate the gym or he will forfeit the game.
"Forfeit the game?" See above question, no problem.
"I just can't see any possible positive outcome from dropping a T on this idiot at this point in this game" I can, see above.

I consider this "T-Worthy". At any time. Period. And I haven't issued a technical foul to a coach this whole 60plus game season. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Back In The Saddle]

No question that the coach's behavior is unacceptable. And I'm not talking about the official's emotions. I'm talking about the kids, who are there to play the league championship game. I'm talking about the parents, who are there to watch little Johnny play the game. Remember, this was a 6th grade league. This moment is supposed to be about the kids, not about some OOO's need to send a message.

The game is better served, IMHO, by keeping the T in the pocket. Have a chat with the league administrator if you're concerned about the coach's behavior. Then go home, kick back on the sofa, and watch the game in your 72" HD tv.

Originally Posted by RefTip

BeerFanmike20,

I work quite a bit of youth ball because I really enjoy the kids, so I've been in your shoes . This year I employed a new technique with youth ball and it worked great all year long. Coach's / Captains meetings ( used in all games ) : I tell the coaches that " I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box . I tell the kids that when we blow the whistle to immediately let go of the ball b/c we've already made our decision and we don't want anyone to get hurt.


This pre-game meeting has really made a dramatic difference in how the coaches and kids behave.

Bringing the HS pre-game into the youth game works really well for me too! I worked my first 4 game competitive set of the year this weekend & forgot to conduct it in the first game. 2 minutes in... WHACK apparently coach wasn't aware that he couldn't step onto the court & yell abusively "over the back" into my partners ears. When my partner stood there & just took it I felt compelled to come off the endline & stick coach swiftly before he tried the act on me & got himself ran.

So we took care of business upfront for the rest of our games & there were no more problems. Coaches know upfront what to expect from you & what you expect from them. Most have never heard of the seatbelt rule or staying in their box.

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.
Other than that good advice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RefTip

I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.
Other than that good advice.

I'm not sure his tactic is completely bad. It's a slick way of giving the coaches information ("Only the head coach is allowed to stand, and he must remain in the box.") without giving the impression you don't think they know the rules. Say it in a way that assumes they know the rule, and they get to save face.

I agree that it has the potential to make things difficult the next time, "Hey, the last guy let my assistant stand." But a smart coach will learn from the pre-game and might just ask before the game next time.

I can see how it might backfire in later games, but there might be benefits to it as well.

[ranjo]

T or no T I won't comment on. We all have our own tolerance level and all types of considerations to take into account at any given level of play.

The point I want to make is:

YOU DID NOT CAUSE THE COACH OR HIS TEAM TO WIN OR LOSE THE GAME BECAUSE OF ONE MISSED TRAVEL!!!

The game is won or loss during the whole game while we are constantly making judgement calls about what to penalize and what to let go. As officials, we don't travel, double dribble, palm the ball, make substitutions, set the type of defense, take dumb shots,throw the ball away, miss shots or free throws, (you add on from here). Everybody remembers that last shot or whatever that happens at the end of a close game, but that's not what wins or loses games.

As soon as I got that in my head, I was able to relax more and make better judgements at the end of a close one.