I blew the call....

[Bearfanmike20]

forth qut... 6th grade league championship...

2.4 seconds left white scores. Blue coach is screaming at me how I cost him the championship.


rewind to about a minute left... both coaches are sceaming about how we aren't calling enough. I do somthing.. not in the book. I go up to both of them and say coaches... I'll talk about calls but dont scream at me. Now.. I should have T'd them up right there, but it was a tight game for the championship and I figured.. I'd warn them.

fast foward now to the 2.4 seconds... What happened before that is white took the ball up the court.. passed to the top of the key, and then a pass went inside right away to the paint and that player scored. Blue coach screaming for a travel from the player at the top of the key.. now.. I didn't see it.. literaly.. my view was obstructed and by the time I got a better one.. the ball was out.. so it could have happened I dont know.. But I'm not going to call somthing I didn't see... reguardless of the reason why I didn't see it. Anyway.. blue loses the ball on the inbound.. soposedly another missed call....

so thats when I get..

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..

Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

[RefTip]

BeerFanmike20,

I work quite a bit of youth ball because I really enjoy the kids, so I've been in your shoes . This year I employed a new technique with youth ball and it worked great all year long. Coach's / Captains meetings ( used in all games ) : I tell the coaches that " I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box . IF things get heated then I will ask the assistant coach to sit and we will follow HS rules." I tell the kids that when we blow the whistle to immediately let go of the ball b/c we've already made our decision and we don't want anyone to get hurt.

If a coach gets out of line or " chirpy " I then bench the AC and follow my normal routine : Stop sign ....then technical ........... Once the AC has been benched I don't hesitate to T the coach up if needed.

This pre-game meeting has really made a dramatic difference in how the coaches and kids behave. Most of the " coaches" do not have a clue that the AC can't stand or what the coach's box is. So what it has done has educated them somewhat, and set an expectation of how things will go if things get " heated ".

My first youth tournament this year ( using this method ) I had my first T of the year and my first compliment . Parents of both the winning and losing team liked that I " took control " of the game.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know what worked for me. Again, after I bench the AC I don't give them an inch.

Tip

BTW - I guess all of the kids made their FT's and didn't miss any layups --- but you cost them the game ????

Originally Posted by RefTip

BeerFanmike20,

I work quite a bit of youth ball because I really enjoy the kids, so I've been in your shoes . This year I employed a new technique with youth ball and it worked great all year long. Coach's / Captains meetings ( used in all games ) : I tell the coaches that " I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box . I tell the kids that when we blow the whistle to immediately let go of the ball b/c we've already made our decision and we don't want anyone to get hurt.


This pre-game meeting has really made a dramatic difference in how the coaches and kids behave.

Bringing the HS pre-game into the youth game works really well for me too! I worked my first 4 game competitive set of the year this weekend & forgot to conduct it in the first game. 2 minutes in... WHACK apparently coach wasn't aware that he couldn't step onto the court & yell abusively "over the back" into my partners ears. When my partner stood there & just took it I felt compelled to come off the endline & stick coach swiftly before he tried the act on me & got himself ran.

So we took care of business upfront for the rest of our games & there were no more problems. Coaches know upfront what to expect from you & what you expect from them. Most have never heard of the seatbelt rule or staying in their box.

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.
Other than that good advice.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RefTip

I realize this is not HS ball, so we'll allow both the HC and AC to be up " coaching " as long as they stay in the box.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.
Other than that good advice.

I'm not sure his tactic is completely bad. It's a slick way of giving the coaches information ("Only the head coach is allowed to stand, and he must remain in the box.") without giving the impression you don't think they know the rules. Say it in a way that assumes they know the rule, and they get to save face.

I agree that it has the potential to make things difficult the next time, "Hey, the last guy let my assistant stand." But a smart coach will learn from the pre-game and might just ask before the game next time.

I can see how it might backfire in later games, but there might be benefits to it as well.

[ma_ref]

I had a coach use a similar line on me earlier this year after a youth game: "You stole the game from us", referring to a no-call I had on a desperation/hail-mary three-quarter court length shot by 1 of his kids at the end of the game. Defense was full-court pressing, and any contact was initiated by the shooter.

Of course, coach didn't mention about how they had a 1 point lead with 10 seconds to go, along with 3 possessions (including a controversial AP situation in which his team benefitted and got the ball) and bricked 4 free throws.

Still makes me laugh when I think about it...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.

Fwiw, I agree with that. If you set the bar up front, you can still use a little personal discretion later if an assistant is standing.

[Junker]

My question is whether there was a time earlier when the coaches should have been warned or whacked? If they were that out of line at the end of the game I would guess there may have been an opportunity to take care of business earlier. Don't worry about the "coach" telling you he didn't want you on his games again. There are plenty of other games out there and they are much more fun to work than 6th graders. The first few incidents with a coach will rattle you a little, but it does get easier with experience.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fwiw, I agree with that. If you set the bar up front, you can still use a little personal discretion later if an assistant is standing.

Funny, just had this happen yesterday in a 6th grade travel tourney. Both teams' coaches HC and AC were standing and I respectfully and casually told them only one HC could stand. They both complied. There seems to be a correlation ,the younger the kids, the more coaches want to stand.

Agreed on telling them early.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Funny, just had this happen yesterday in a 6th grade travel tourney. Both teams' coaches HC and AC were standing and I respectfully and casually told them only one HC could stand. They both complied. There seems to be a correlation ,the younger the kids, the more coaches want to stand.

Agreed on telling them early.

I was working a highly competetive all-star travel game with the area's top talent ( ) a while back, it was like 7th or 6th grade AAU. Coach asks me if it's ok if his assistant stands because...well because they forgot to put chairs in the gym that morning. I'm impressed, tell him sure, stand all you like, thanks for asking.

2 minutes in assistant is screaming his head off about something, I stopped the game and told HC to control his bench. He says "but you said he could stand!"

Stupid monkey

[RefTip]

RefTip - I just don't agree with your text in red... if we're going to enforce it, lets do it right! Because when officials like myself work the next game (after yours) we don't want to have to explain why 2 coaches will not be standing for THIS ballgame. Regardless of what took place last time.
Other than that good advice.[/QUOTE]

CH1town,

You have a good point,,,, I'll need to revisit my approach a bit . I was basically trying to do what Snaqwells described (to let them know I know the rules without them losing face). I had such good results with it this year that I forgot to realize how it would affect the next crew.

Thanks for the reply

Tip

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

you'll never work one of my games again".

Hahahaha....from a sixth grade coach? How will you sleep at night?

As I've said before, similar to you, I've kicked myself more for the T's I didn't give as opposed to the one's I did.

Live and learn! Get em next time!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Hahahaha....from a sixth grade coach? How will you sleep at night?

As I've said before, similar to you, I've kicked myself more for the T's I didn't give as opposed to the one's I did.

Live and learn! Get em next time!

I agree.

btw, you should have told him you're working towards the day when you won't have to take his games anymore.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

forth qut... 6th grade league championship...

2.4 seconds left white scores. Blue coach is screaming at me how I cost him the championship.


rewind to about a minute left... both coaches are sceaming about how we aren't calling enough. I do somthing.. not in the book. I go up to both of them and say coaches... I'll talk about calls but dont scream at me. Now.. I should have T'd them up right there, but it was a tight game for the championship and I figured.. I'd warn them.

fast foward now to the 2.4 seconds... What happened before that is white took the ball up the court.. passed to the top of the key, and then a pass went inside right away to the paint and that player scored. Blue coach screaming for a travel from the player at the top of the key.. now.. I didn't see it.. literaly.. my view was obstructed and by the time I got a better one.. the ball was out.. so it could have happened I dont know.. But I'm not going to call somthing I didn't see... reguardless of the reason why I didn't see it. Anyway.. blue loses the ball on the inbound.. soposedly another missed call....

so thats when I get..

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..

Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

You can always ref soccer..........

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

"You cost us the championship... you'll never work one of my games again" 2.4 seconds left.. I should have T'd him and I let it go.... i'm not sure why..Those are the calls I missed.. the two T's and as God is my witness in this forum I'll NEVER miss them again.

We often learn by our mistakes. I won't comment on the first possible technical foul, but I will certainly comment on the second: "You cost us the championship. You'll never work one of my games again". For me, this would be the easiest techncial foul that I've ever called. I might have to think about it for a split second, or two, but I might even go as far as a flagrant technical foul. Because it's flagrant, maybe some type of league rule would have some administrator look into this, or perhaps even make him, or her, sit out a game next season.

And, for your information, I have a pretty long fuse. Over sixty games this year, and not a single technical foul given to a coach. I can't really think of a warning, or a "stop sign", either. Either I was very lucky, or I'm losing my touch. I'm doing the Special Olypics Unified Games later this week. One more chance for me to T-up a coach, and maybe I'll even use that non-NFHS, baseball-style, you're outta here signal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Assuming the coaches hadn't been on you all game, your first warning sounds like a good way to handle the situation. It's a tense time in an important game, you've got to expect some emotions. You addressed the adult's bad behavior directly and gave them the opportunity to get it under control. And you did it in a way that didn't negatively impact the kids.

As for the second T, the coach deserved it. But... Might the discretion you excercised have actually been the right answer? Would the T have served any useful purpose? Would it have made the game better? Would it have gotten the coach under control? Would it have affected the outcome? Would it have righted some wrong?

Or, in the last game of the season, that's already been decided, and with less than three seconds on the clock, would it have only made an emotional situation more emotional? What if the coach really went off at you after getting the T? Are you prepared to toss him? With three seconds left? What if he refused to leave, then what? Forfeit the game?

I just can't see any possible positive outcome from dropping a T on this idiot at this point in this game. IMHO sometimes the best answer is to leave the T in your pocket and let the game end.

Just my $0.02