Q From 1st Year: Scrubs are comin' in the game.

[TimTaylor]

Our job is to call the game consistently & fairly from beginning to end. It's absurd to change the way we are calling late in the game just because some players have a problem - maybe they should work harder at raising their skill level. Every player that enters that game must be held to the same standard.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

This is nonsense. It shows a first year official has some awareness of how the game should be worked.

Just keep in mind that a 15 point lead with 3 minutes left CAN be overcome. However, if the losing team's coach has emptied the bench, then you are likely safe. Get all the felonies and serious misdemeanors and the calls that HAVE to be made (obvious hacks, falling down with the ball, etc.), and be very judicious on the rest. This translates to protecting the shooter, getting the other fouls you need to get, but unless he uses a clearly illegal move to get around a defender (palming, traveling, etc.) and gains a big advantage, we're probably going to let that go.

I will say it depends on your circumstances. If you've had a good game with no real problems, doing this is safe. If you've had problems, you have to be aware of control first hand. As long as you keep control of the game, you should be fine.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. You're obviously more experienced, but you also obviously don't have a clue either on how to call a game imo.

Forget about me. There's some very sharp officials in this thread that completely disagree with your philosophy. Officials that make me stop and think when they disagree with me about something. Think about it. Or not(shrug).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

This is nonsense. It shows a first year official has some awareness of how the game should be worked.

Just keep in mind that a 15 point lead with 3 minutes left CAN be overcome. However, if the losing team's coach has emptied the bench, then you are likely safe. Get all the felonies and serious misdemeanors and the calls that HAVE to be made (obvious hacks, falling down with the ball, etc.), and be very judicious on the rest. This translates to protecting the shooter, getting the other fouls you need to get, but unless he uses a clearly illegal move to get around a defender (palming, traveling, etc.) and gains a big advantage, we're probably going to let that go.

I will say it depends on your circumstances. If you've had a good game with no real problems, doing this is safe. If you've had problems, you have to be aware of control first hand. As long as you keep control of the game, you should be fine.

Will a first year official be able to dial it down and up at will and not have something bad happen? That's the question.

[ca_rumperee]

I've been away all day and unable to respond.

here is my point of view. Right now I'm doing games ranging from 3rd and 4th grade kids, 7th & 8th grade cyo, and high school freshmen and jv boys and girls.

Now, I can tell you that I am not going to call the 4th graders game the same as the JV Boys game, unless you consider that I will call all of the lines and will work to find the level of play at which we can have a flowing basketball game. At each and every level I will call advantage/disadvantage. Period

Now, the scrubs come in, maybe the trailing coach capitulating by bringing his in first. While there is a chance ("so you're saying there's a chance!") that the trailing team can mount a comeback, you basically have 10 kids on the floor from the ends of their respective benches. I'm suggesting making a move from the level that the game has been called to that point, to maybe the level of an 8th grade cyo game.

Maybe I don't get the kid for moving his pivot foot while not being closely defended whilst 30 feet from the basket.

Does all that make sense?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

At each and every level I will call advantage/disadvantage. Period

Does all that make sense?

It might make sense to you. Personally, I have never met a first year official yet that has a clue what advantage/disadvantage really means, let alone how to apply it. Be that as it may however......

A whole bunch of very experienced officials have given you some very good advice....advice that you have chosen to ignore.

Soooooo.....good luck. Have a good career.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I've been away all day and unable to respond.

here is my point of view. Right now I'm doing games ranging from 3rd and 4th grade kids, 7th & 8th grade cyo, and high school freshmen and jv boys and girls.

Now, I can tell you that I am not going to call the 4th graders game the same as the JV Boys game, unless you consider that I will call all of the lines and will work to find the level of play at which we can have a flowing basketball game. At each and every level I will call advantage/disadvantage. Period

Now, the scrubs come in, maybe the trailing coach capitulating by bringing his in first. While there is a chance ("so you're saying there's a chance!") that the trailing team can mount a comeback, you basically have 10 kids on the floor from the ends of their respective benches. I'm suggesting making a move from the level that the game has been called to that point, to maybe the level of an 8th grade cyo game.

Maybe I don't get the kid for moving his pivot foot while not being closely defended whilst 30 feet from the basket.

Does all that make sense?

I have no problem with calling different levels of games differently. Of course we call a 4th grade game much differently that a HS varsity contest.

But I'm still not sure I follow the reason for changing how a game is called, within the same game. How do players know how to adjust? What if a team only has 8 or 9 total players? That means some of them have been in the game before, so they've played under one set of guidlines, but at the end of the game they're playing under a different set of guidelines. What about the players at the end of the bench that have been watching all game, and seen how the game is called, only to now enter the game and play under a different set of guidelines? Is that fair to the players?

What plays do you call early, but ignore late? Do you have a list that you go over with your partners in the pre-game? Are you saying you call a travel on the kid that moves his pivot foot 30 ft. from the basket at the beginning of the game, but you don't call it later?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It might make sense to you. Personally, I have never met a first year official yet that has a clue what advantage/disadvantage really means, let alone how to apply it. Be that as it may however......

A whole bunch of very experienced officials have given you some very good advice....advice that you have chosen to ignore.

Soooooo.....good luck. Have a good career.

My previous post was to clarify my initial post, not to throw down a gauntlet and say "I have my mind made up". I was trying to clarify my position going into this thread.

I haven't chosen to ignore ANYTHING! I'm looking for feedback and there has been a whole gamut of responses. My assumption is that all are very good officials.

As to whether a first year can know advantage/disadvantage... I'll bet you its a scenario where if you had 5 refs... one who was a 20 year vet, one who was a 10 year vet, one who was 5, and one who was 3 year and one who was 1 year...

You could go down the line...
3 year, "I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was a 1 year"
5 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was a 3 year"
10 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was 5 year"
20 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was 10 year"

so, I may have no clue (and I will be the first to admit that to you), but I have to do my best to judge that in real time on the court.

Word.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

My previous post was to clarify my initial post, not to throw down a gauntlet and say "I have my mind made up". I was trying to clarify my position going into this thread.

I haven't chosen to ignore ANYTHING! I'm looking for feedback and there has been a whole gamut of responses. My assumption is that all are very good officials.

As to whether a first year can know advantage/disadvantage... I'll bet you its a scenario where if you had 5 refs... one who was a 20 year vet, one who was a 10 year vet, one who was 5, and one who was 3 year and one who was 1 year...

You could go down the line...
3 year, "I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was a 1 year"
5 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was a 3 year"
10 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was 5 year"
20 year, "Oh yeah? I know now that I didn't know sh!t about A/D when I was 10 year"

so, I may have no clue (and I will be the first to admit that to you), but I have to do my best to judge that in real time on the court.

Word.

There are newer officials that have a natural feel for the game and there are 20 year vets without a clue.

I think what JR, in his usually surly way, is trying to tell you and the advise I'd give you is this:

As a first year you have too much on your plate to be concerning yourself with "game handling" philosophies. Call your game and call it the same start to finish.

Now obviously if you are working the little kids in the exposure to the game, wind-up toy games you'd adjust what is or isn't called...once it reaches competitive level, regardless of age, we need to call it for real.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Now, I can tell you that I am not going to call the 4th graders game the same as the JV Boys game, unless you consider that I will call all of the lines and will work to find the level of play at which we can have a flowing basketball game. At each and every level I will call advantage/disadvantage. Period

You're not saying that you've got your mind made up, eh?

Got it.

Sorry that I wasted your time.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Word.

Vanilla Ice just called. He wants his lame-@ss '80s catchphrase back.

[26 Year Gap]

To the 'scrubs' who have just entered the game, it is the most important game going on at the moment. Maybe a kid gets fouled while in the bonus and you let it go because it was not too bad of a foul and it had no bearing on the game. But if a frosh kid is in there, he may not play at the next level, he may only have a few chances in the season to score a point or two, he may also be busting his butt in practice looking for playing time and if you change things up you are doing a great dis-service.

PLUS, if you are looking to become more consistent in game calling, mechanics, etc, what better time than the situation you described to 'work on stuff'?

[TheOracle]

The post than Dan put up at the start of this thread is perfect, witht the two schools of thought. And his advice on which one to follow at this point is also dead on.

You are on the right track with respect to A/D, however as you gain experience and tailor your personal philosophy, you will take your lumps. The thing to keep in mind about subs at the end of any game, whether it is freshman boys or college games, is that they generally are not as skilled and have a lot of energy, either because they're finally on the floor or they want to prove they should be playing more. That can result in overly physcial play which you cannot allow. That's the worst thing you can do--allow very physical play wihtout whistles because that can lead to explosions that ruin the game and cause you and crew problems.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Maybe I don't get the kid for moving his pivot foot while not being closely defended whilst 30 feet from the basket.

So you're teaching him he can get away with this? Where do you draw the line? 15 feet? 10 feet? Boo. Every kid, even the scrubs, deserves a fairly called game. We're there to administer the rules, not pat little Jimmy on the head and say "that's okay, you're just a benchwarmer" if he does something wrong. Kind of insulting, if you ask me.

I'm just a first year guy as well; I feel that consistency at this point in my career is the biggest thing I need to work on. How am I supposed to accomplish this by changing the way I make calls in this fashion?