help with 3 man rotation

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Trail will take a position at or below the 28 foot line and coverage will extend across to opposite side of the free-throw line. Thus 60%

Center will take a position along the sideline at the free throw line where he/she can move two steps above or below that location(free-throw line) to obtain proper angles. Thus 40%. The center also have division line responsibility on their side.

Lead has everything in the lane with assist of the center at times.

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

Doesn't the C have half the paint?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

This is getting interesting. Let's think about all the plays that could happen in a basketball game. If you look at all the plays the C would call - plays that are not in a dual area, but clearly in the C's primary - and divide them up into two categories: plays where the Lead should have a whistle and plays where the Lead shouldn't have a whistle. Now, we all know the plays where the Lead should NOT have a whistle will outnumber the others by a mile. Having come to that conclusion, what should that Lead plan for, to call across the lane slow whistle and all or not call across the lane? Common sense would say to plan not to make calls across the lane. Since the OP may get confused with backside help, stop right there! Don't call across the paint. If you feel like you just have to look over there, rotate over there. If you feel like you have to look out top too...well then you are watching the ball and that is a whole different subject.

Agreed in a basic sense to say don't call across the lane, but if I am C there is a skip and a quick drive out of my primary (not time to rotate) and B1 reaches in and grabs A1's arm and I am straightlined and don't get it then I would hope to hell that the L would help me out...better to have a late whistle than no whistle if it IS a foul...but correct, if you have to default into "don't call across the lane" and "do", then yeah stay out of there...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

Doesn't the C have half the paint?

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by kbilla

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

You also told him the Lead has the entire paint. No wonder you are making calls across the lane. Do you have a manual?

If you want to get into backside help then yeah the Lead can make that call. However, I would be you $100 bucks that if you are really worried about this enough to use that as a reason to tell someone new to this system that it could be a reason to call across the paint...you probably watch the ball.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

Doesn't the C have half the paint?

Yeah if C has to cover the division line in a given situation (ie. trap at center court in C's "coffin corner"), then C should force the rotation and become the new T...then they would have the division line, but they would now be T...pghboy, this would be the only situation that I can think of where a rotation would be "initiated" by someone other than L....but C does NOT have division line responsibility...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You also told him the Lead has the entire paint. No wonder you are making calls across the lane. Do you have a manual?

If you want to get into backside help then yeah the Lead can make that call. However, I would be you $100 bucks that if you are really worried about this enough to use that as a reason to tell someone new to this system that it could be a reason to call across the paint...you probably watch the ball.

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by kbilla

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

I think I see the confusion, this post was meant to mean "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR FIRST POINT" and "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR SECOND POINT"....

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

The C have division line responsiblity if there is a trap on the C's side. I did not mention that previously.

Doesn't the C have half the paint?

Yes, I wanted to keep it a little simple did not what to go that deep. You are correct C has half the paint

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

I apologize for quoting you when it was Truerookie.

Who told you that it is a NCAA mechanic that the Lead has action going to the hoop from either side? It seems like I have to say this locally all the time: there will be normal, average, happens all the time, drives from the C's side of the court and the C should take these. I have never heard of an NCAA mechanic where the Lead has every drive.
To answer your other question, in most of my games I do NOT call across the paint. I would call across the paint for the following reasons:

1. A non-basketball play
2. A play on the backside (from the C) where the C has no physical way of seeing the contact.
3. If there is a quick steal and the C may or may not be in position.
4. An obviously missed call by the C like a block/charge with no whistle.

If those situations do not occur in a game I do not call across the paint. Also keep in mind IMO a double whistle that is clearly in the C's primary and NOT in the dual coverage area is not a good double whistle. If I had a whistle on the backside or an obvious call that was missed it would be delayed and would not be at the same time as the C.

***We have talked about absolutes on the board several times. I'm not saying that what I posted above is absolute BUT this is what I plan for because this is what happens most of the time. I feel (very strongly) that if an official plans to call across the paint, that official WILL call across the paint when it isn't correct.

[kbilla]

[QUOTE=truerookie]

Originally Posted by kbilla

same on rebounding action, most of those fouls will come from C or L....

Don't you mean most rebounding action will come from C or T. Rarely should the lead have a push from behind.

Sorry, exactly what I meant they should come from C or T..thanks...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Yes, I wanted to keep it a little simple did not what to go that deep. You are correct C has half the paint

So to keep it simple you would send someone without experience off with some bad or at the least misleading information? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I apologize for quoting you when it was Truerookie.

Who told you that it is a NCAA mechanic that the Lead has action going to the hoop from either side?

This is specifically called out in the men's manual (unless I really misinterpreted this)...not saying that everyone actually practices this, the juco game I had on Sat, no one else was comfortable calling this way so we just went with NF in this regard..but regardless of how it is practiced, if they put it in the manual there must at least be some justification - we must be able to assume that the L can at least SEE the play....that said, like I said basically I agree with you, there should not be many calls across the lane. ESPECIALLY blocks/fouls involving "body" contact, C has the best look at those and nothing irks me more than watching a play from my primary as C develop and I follow it all the way in and there is a little body contact with no advantage and L reaches over and calls a block...but the things that L can help with are the holds, smacks, things that happen in front of A1 that C could possibly get straightlined from...if you see those happen as L, I welcome the help as C...my whole point was just to let this person know that while you shouldn't be looking for fouls over there, that doesn't mean that you look the other way either...

[blindzebra]

Really simple.

Relax and don't forget to officiate the game.

As lead, try to put your partners in the best position to officiate and that will lead to proper rotations, if you feel like you should be looking over there you should be moving over there.

As trail you will be able to see the lead go across, just fill in as they do.

As center if you are reffing on ball, you should be expecting a rotation, and you can easily pick up the old trail moving down as lead comes over.

In any case just get where you need to be to call the game and let the mechanics iron themselves out from there.

As you start getting the "feel" of it, the trust of your partners begins to grow and you'll find it even easier to move, ref, and cover the court.

[tomegun]

I had a NAIA game on Saturday and my partner told us something I've never heard before. He said for us all to go out, draw a box and call in that box. It was his way of saying stay in your primary. I think his philosophy is good enough for Dale Kelly.
I'm busy with some other stuff to look, so can you tell me where it says to look at drives in your manual?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

No it doesn't.

The drive belongs to whoever had the start of the drive. Lead has help defenders and is recommended to be at close down to ASSIST the C on drives from that side. The womens side calls it pinching the paint and wants lead to step down and back with one foot in the quicksand to HELP but it isn't leads primary call.