help with 3 man rotation

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So to keep it simple you would send someone without experience off with some bad or at the least misleading information? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

I would not say its totally bad. The official just needs to be aware that the lane is their responsibility. It can be pre-game with their partner(s). About how much is the lead and center responsibility.

[lpbreeze]

I've been watching a couple games and I just couldn't figure out what was going on. Sometime the C was dropping down sometimes not. Sometimes there were Two C and these were experienced refs.
Are high school and NCAA same movement? I found it easier to understand watching NCAA. When I read about it I'm sure I will understand it more.

[Mregor]

1. You can not over rotate.
2. Double whistles are OK.
3. Be strong at C.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

No it doesn't.

The drive belongs to whoever had the start of the drive. Lead has help defenders and is recommended to be at close down to ASSIST the C on drives from that side. The womens side calls it pinching the paint and wants lead to step down and back with one foot in the quicksand to HELP but it isn't leads primary call.

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by lpbreeze

I've been watching a couple games and I just couldn't figure out what was going on. Sometime the C was dropping down sometimes not. Sometimes there were Two C and these were experienced refs.
Are high school and NCAA same movement? I found it easier to understand watching NCAA. When I read about it I'm sure I will understand it more.

It seems that in NCAA games I have watched, the C & T take far more latitude as far as how far up and back they work than what they teach you in camps - at least NF camps....usually in NF it is a step or two above or below the FT line for C, but some of these guys work halfway to the baseline as C sometimes...I suppose it comes back to get in the best position to see the play, makes sense...

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by kbilla

It seems that in NCAA games I have watched, the C & T take far more latitude as far as how far up and back they work than what they teach you in camps - at least NF camps....usually in NF it is a step or two above or below the FT line for C, but some of these guys work halfway to the baseline as C sometimes...I suppose it comes back to get in the best position to see the play, makes sense...

I know I take far more latitude than many at C - depending on the type of offense being run. I like to be above the players on the wing, not below, and to do this at times I have to get more than two steps above the FT line extended. Not often, but I still do it.

I used to work below, but I found I couldn't keep an eye on secondary plays in my primary very well, and I often got straightlined on drives to the basket on the baseline side.

I also step quite a ways down in quick transition plays at the hoop - about halfway down the lane, though this isn't much more than 2 steps from the FT line extended.

[Cleefy]

Would 3 man in NCAA be anything like FIBA's three man?

I might have some info that could help if it is.

Cleefy

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Would 3 man in NCAA be anything like FIBA's three man?

I might have some info that could help if it is.

Cleefy

No idea...

[FrankHtown]

I'm just amazed an assignor would give a 3 person varsity game to someone who it seems is not very familiar with it.

[Cleefy]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

I'm just amazed an assignor would give a 3 person varsity game to someone who it seems is not very familiar with it.

Good point.

If the original poster still needs help, I'll write some stuff up...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by FrankHtown

I'm just amazed an assignor would give a 3 person varsity game to someone who it seems is not very familiar with it.

Well I suppose we all have to work our first at some point. Even if this person went to a camp this summer, that was probably 6 months ago at this point, other than going and watching games and studying the material, asking questions on this board is as good an option as any...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Good point.

If the original poster still needs help, I'll write some stuff up...

Just to clarify I believe that the OP is looking for help on NF 3-person, NOT NCAA 3-person....the NCAA 3-person topic sprung as a side-note from this thread....they are basically the same other than a few small differences, including the NCAA mechanics change that I noted (?)

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by pghboy

Getting ready to do my first varsity 3 man game and would love some tips on how the rotation works.

We've generated 3 pages and only 2 responses actually address rotation. Rotation is live-ball movement (usually) initiated by the Lead. The Lead will move from one side of the lane to the opposite side. At that point, the former Trail official moves to the free throw line extended, becoming the new Center official; and the former Center official moves to approximately the 28' line and becomes the new Trail.

When should the Lead initiate a rotation? First in high school, we wait until all 10 players and all 3 officials are in the frontcourt before we rotate. We don't do that NBA stuff where they rotate as soon as the ball is over midcourt.

Second, we'll rotate when the ball moves to the Center's side of the court AND:

1. stays there for more than about 2 seconds.
2. there is also a post matchup (high or low post) on the Center's side of the court.
3. you anticipate that there will be a quick drive to the basket.

When should the Lead NOT initiate a rotation?

1. Before all 10 players and all 3 officials are in the frontcourt.
2. After a drive to the basket has started.
3. While a try is in the air.
4. When the offense is running a "weave" and you know that the ball is immediately coming back to your side of the court.

Also, the CENTER official can initiate a rotation when there is heavy pressure on the ball near midcourt on the Center's sideline. In order to officiate that play, the Center must be in the Trail position. So he/she should immediately move toward midcourt. The Lead official must recognize this and complete the rotation.

One thing I tell guys is that we don't want to leave the Center official with the ball AND a post matchup. The Center can handle a 1-on-1 drive to the basket, no problem. But it's much more difficult to officiate the matchup and also the post. So if you see that, then go help with the post play.

I'm sure there are others here who also have some helpful tips on this. I generally tell new guys that if you think you should rotate, then rotate. You can always rotate back. Eventually, you'll get a better feel for it. I do think that you CAN over-rotate (for example, in a weave offense with no shot clock); but generally, as long as you're not a ping-pong ball back and forth, just go and come back if you have to.

(Now, if you really meant that you wanted help with switching -- DEAD ball movement initiated because of a foul call -- then let us know and we can talk about that, too.)

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

You should be strong-side on drives to the hole a large majority of the time. If you are not, you are not getting ball-side nearly enough. Therefore, it should be somewhat rare when a player drives all the way to the hole from the weak-side, which should be handled by the C. On the strong-side, L should be getting the block/charge. The reason for the change is two-fold. First, a large majority of those block/charge calls occur due to secondary defenders, which is an L primary responsibility. The other reason is optics/perception: it looks better to everyone and is perceived as better when the lead makes that call, due to the proximity to the play. And yeah, I'm waiting for Captain Literal to say the same as when the drive comes from the C side, but read the first two lines of this.

To the OP: Get ball side when possible. If the ball is over there, and there are other players there too, get over, because the C cannot take the ball matchup and anyone else.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You should be strong-side on drives to the hole a large majority of the time. If you are not, you are not getting ball-side nearly enough. Therefore, it should be somewhat rare when a player drives all the way to the hole from the weak-side, which should be handled by the C. On the strong-side, L should be getting the block/charge. The reason for the change is two-fold. First, a large majority of those block/charge calls occur due to secondary defenders, which is an L primary responsibility. The other reason is optics/perception: it looks better to everyone and is perceived as better when the lead makes that call, due to the proximity to the play. And yeah, I'm waiting for Captain Literal to say the same as when the drive comes from the C side, but read the first two lines of this.

To the OP: Get ball side when possible. If the ball is over there, and there are other players there too, get over, because the C cannot take the ball matchup and anyone else.

OK, but it IS a mechanics change right? That was my point that some others were disputing...my whole thing in all of this was just to make the point that when you are L and the action is coming from the opposite side, don't bail out on it, don't give up on it just b/c it isn't your primary. I agree with others that L should not be reaching across frequently, if he is, then he needs to get his behind over there more....but get wide as L and you can see everything going on, that way you are able to lend help to C on the rare occassion that you haven't rotated and he/she misses one...