rotation

[fullor30]

Posted this on another site..........

First game of season last night and my partner mentioned someting to me and wanted an opinion from the gurus here.

I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side.

He thought I should have slid over, I thought in this scenario it's ok to have two trails for a few seconds and I had I slid over, I'm watching virtually nobody.

Not trying to prove who was right or wrong, just trying to learn.

Thanks

[JRutledge]

It is really hard to tell what to do based on what you just described. For one was the team playing the ball to one side? In other words, was the ball likely to be played on your side of the court (where you were as lead)? Also I do not know why your partner that was at the C had to automatically move to a trail position.

I am also going to assume this was a girl's game (considering that the girl's season started yesterday in Illinois) and you likely worked with an official that is used to working with or has college experience. That being said there are people that think the minute the ball moves to the other side of the lane, you should rotate. That is the College Women's Mechanic but not the IHSA Mechanic. I would agree that you might close down to be ready to rotate, but it is not automatic in that situation. You have players on your side of the lane and if they are fighting for position and running screens, you might need to watch that. This is especially true if the ball is not within the 3 point area.

That just touches the surface, I am sure you will clarify further.

Peace

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is really hard to tell what to do based on what you just described. For one was the team playing the ball to one side? In other words, was the ball likely to be played on your side of the court (where you were as lead)? Also I do not know why your partner that was at the C had to automatically move to a trail position.

I am also going to assume this was a girl's game (considering that the girl's season started yesterday in Illinois) and you likely worked with an official that is used to working with or has college experience. That being said there are people that think the minute the ball moves to the other side of the lane, you should rotate. That is the College Women's Mechanic but not the IHSA Mechanic. I would agree that you might close down to be ready to rotate, but it is not automatic in that situation. You have players on your side of the lane and if they are fighting for position and running screens, you might need to watch that. This is especially true if the ball is not within the 3 point area.

That just touches the surface, I am sure you will clarify further.

Peace

Agree with Rut that this is a college mechanic for the T to basically initiate the rotation. If there was a trap at half court on C side, we pre-game all the time that that is the one situation where C will initiate the rotation and move up to T. Doesn't sound like that is the case here, just that C followed the ball back to T....not a terrible mechanic, I actually wish that NF would follow it...if the idea is to get officials in the best position to see what is going on, in that situation if you have a steal and play going the other way, that official has a much better chance to get a look at it if they are now the new L....as C though you do have the latitude to move a few steps above the FT line extended, so you can usually get up far enough to get a look from there...bottom line though is pre-game all of this and officiate the game, nobody is going to care if you have "two trails" for a few seconds in order to get the best look at the play...

[rockyroad]

It's really hard to answer your question conclusively based on the brief description you gave. Here's my take - any time the ball goes to the other side I am at least preparing myself to rotate across. I want to be over there BEFORE the post players start moving across so I can watch what they are doing to each other as they come across the key, rather than watching it from behind or as I am moving with them. That being said, if the new ball-handler is pulling the ball back out, I might hesitate to see where they are going first...In other words, your partner was correct in a pure sense of the idea of rotating, but it doesn't always translate into the real world quite that nicely. So you didn't really do anything wrong, and if that's what the post-game discussion was centered on, then you had yourself a fine night.

As my good buddy Bhuck Elics likes to say, "You done good, partner."

[fullor30]

I agree, a trap would present a different play, one which I'm glad you reminded me of. I have agame tonight and will include that in my pregame.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

As my good little buddy Bhuck Elics likes to say, "You done good, partner."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

As my good little buddy Bhuck Elics likes to say, "You done good, partner."

Hey, Bhuck is a man of real stature. He's not even afraid to wear pink.

[Reffing Rev.]

Our usual mechanic, Nobody initiates a rotation except the L. C might work tall or T might work short, but if L doesn't go, nobody goes. One guy on our crew is still uncomfortable rotating, so we pretty much know if he's underneath we're not rotating. Though in our scrimmage a few weeks ago he rotated real early and threw us off.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Posted this on another site..........

First game of season last night and my partner mentioned someting to me and wanted an opinion from the gurus here.

I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side.

He thought I should have slid over, I thought in this scenario it's ok to have two trails for a few seconds and I had I slid over, I'm watching virtually nobody.

Not trying to prove who was right or wrong, just trying to learn.

Thanks

I am one of those guys that JRut was talking about. I am in agreeance with your partner on this one. We need to have as much strongside officiating as possible. Where does the most action happen? Near the ball or on the ball side. So why put you're C in the position to have to referee a "lone ranger" play? What if we have a 2 man game set up on that side with a pick n' roll? That play then needs two sets of eyes and if it happens on the weakside wing, there is only one guy there to referee 4 players. You need that rotation so that if that scenario does happen we can have not only two sets of eyes on the developing play, but better angles at that.

Also, you don't have to run over to the ball side, you can walk as long as you're getting ther in time to see the whole play, whatever it may be. Walking gives you the chance to bail back out if the ball starts to get swung back to the side you are already on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I am one of those guys that JRut was talking about. I am in agreeance with your partner on this one. We need to have as much strongside officiating as possible. Where does the most action happen? Near the ball or on the ball side.

He said that all players were on the other side of the court (opposite of the ball). If that is the case, a rotation might do nothing but leave two officials on the same side to officiate two players (ball handler and the defender). Unless the ball has settled or it is obvious the ball is going to stay on that side, a rotation might be silly. Then you leave one official to officiate 8 players (or most players) all by themselves. Not good if you ask me.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So why put you're C in the position to have to referee a "lone ranger" play? What if we have a 2 man game set up on that side with a pick n' roll? That play then needs two sets of eyes and if it happens on the weakside wing, there is only one guy there to referee 4 players.
You need that rotation so that if that scenario does happen we can have not only two sets of eyes on the developing play, but better angles at that.

Also you are assuming that that is a hard play. I do not know about you, but I can officiate about 4 players rather easily with one of those players in control of the ball. It is not that hard to do and until there is a completed rotation or the ball leaves the immediate area, you have to do that anyway. As a matter of fact I will not take my eyes off that kind of play until I know my partner can pick it up. If the ball is also not below the 3 point line, then the Lead in most cases should not be looking there in the first place if they have active post players.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Also, you don't have to run over to the ball side, you can walk as long as you're getting ther in time to see the whole play, whatever it may be. Walking gives you the chance to bail back out if the ball starts to get swung back to the side you are already on.

Also this game had to be a girl's game. I know some people hate the comparisons, but in Boy's games, skip passes are very common. If you rotate just because the ball is on one side you will be in the middle of a rotation in a boy's game while the ball goes right back to the side you just came from. And if a team favors one side of the court, rotation would also be futile.

I can tell you that the "women's" mechanic is not an accepted practice in our state for many reasons. Some of them that I talked about are just examples of this.

Peace

[fullor30]

Btaylor.............

JR just saved me a whole mess of typing. That's pretty much the scenario, it was an iso play with no possibility of a two man game. And it was a girls' game as JR surmised where ball reversals move rather slowly or slower than boys.

I just felt at the time why would I rotate?

I had a pretty good partner last year who in our pregame said 'I'll rotate when I need to rotate.'

I guess a good reflection on our game if that was one of the major discussions in our postgame.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

He said that all players were on the other side of the court (opposite of the ball). If that is the case, a rotation might do nothing but leave two officials on the same side to officiate two players (ball handler and the defender). Unless the ball has settled or it is obvious the ball is going to stay on that side, a rotation might be silly. Then you leave one official to officiate 8 players (or most players) all by themselves. Not good if you ask me.

Well I just guess we are taught in two diffrent ways then, cause if I don't rotate my boss would be on my rear end about. They can't stress enough about having strongside officiating. Plus, I guess this is just an unusual play, cause you are not going to see, too many times, two players on one side of the floor and no one cutting to the ball, it just doesn't make basketball sense.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also you are assuming that that is a hard play. I do not know about you, but I can officiate about 4 players rather easily with one of those players in control of the ball. It is not that hard to do and until there is a completed rotation or the ball leaves the immediate area, you have to do that anyway. As a matter of fact I will not take my eyes off that kind of play until I know my partner can pick it up. If the ball is also not below the 3 point line, then the Lead in most cases should not be looking there in the first place if they have active post players.

I guess we have to agree to disagree here as well. I don't know what level you are talking about when you say you can ref this play alone, but if you are talking college, which you referee, I think you are a god and that you are better than any referee at the NBA level, none of which believe they can have a high percentage of correct calls while reffing a two man game Pn'R by themselves. IMO there is just too much going on. Hip holds by the defender on the screener (before the role and even harder after the role to the basket), the screener with an extended leg on the on ball defender, illegal forearm reroute on the dribbler trying to push over the screen, lock ups with the screener and the on ball defender, etc. I just don't believe you get as many plays right if you have to referee plays like this, alone.

[SMEngmann]

I'd say talk to your assignor/supervisor and find out how he/she wants you to cover this play and do that. All of us have our own theories and preferences, but the only person who's opinion matters is the boss.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Btaylor.............

JR just saved me a whole mess of typing. That's pretty much the scenario, it was an iso play with no possibility of a two man game. And it was a girls' game as JR surmised where ball reversals move rather slowly or slower than boys.

I just felt at the time why would I rotate?

I had a pretty good partner last year who in our pregame said 'I'll rotate when I need to rotate.'

I guess a good reflection on our game if that was one of the major discussions in our postgame.

Well to me, if the ball moves that slow in the women's game then there is no reason not to walk your butt over there. What if the girl beats her man and the defender gets right behind her and your partner gets stacked on the play? Well if he's stacked by seeing nothing but the defenders back, then you as the lead across the paint have the same look but on the inverse, you will be stacked seeing nothing but the offensive players front and you will then depend on the Trail (cause I know you two aren't going to guess at this play just because she flailed her arms), who is across the court furthest from the play and because you didn't get over he has the best angle, he now has to come get that play when she gets shoved from behind. While all you had to do was get over there and see that the defender slightly takes her hand and shoves her in the small of her back, causing her shot to be affected. Now you have the closest guy to the play making the call and just adding to the overall credibility of the crew.

WHEWW... a lot of typing to make a small point but worth it, I do believe.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well to me, if the ball moves that slow in the women's game then there is no reason not to walk your butt over there. What if the girl beats her man and the defender gets right behind her and your partner gets stacked on the play? Well if he's stacked by seeing nothing but the defenders back, then you as the lead across the paint have the same look but on the inverse, you will be stacked seeing nothing but the offensive players front and you will then depend on the Trail (cause I know you two aren't going to guess at this play just because she flailed her arms), who is across the court furthest from the play and because you didn't get over he has the best angle, he now has to come get that play when she gets shoved from behind. While all you had to do was get over there and see that the defender slightly takes her hand and shoves her in the small of her back, causing her shot to be affected. Now you have the closest guy to the play making the call and just adding to the overall credibility of the crew.

WHEWW... a lot of typing to make a small point but worth it, I do believe.

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.