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Old Sat Jan 05, 2008, 03:12am
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Ref not Reffing Trying to Ref. OK??

Sorry for the title. Couldn't think of anything better to use as an attention grabber From a JV Boys game earlier tonight/yesterday evening, with team A visitors and team B home. I am scorekeeper for A:

At 2:53 mark of 3Q, a jump ball is called, and a scuffle breaks out on the floor (didn't see it start). Once the scuffle is stopped, the referees come over to the table, without getting together away from everyone to sort everything out. This leads to coaches from both sides starting to lobby and politick for favorable calls in the situation. These are very clearly two inexperienced officials who probably hadn't dealt with anything like this before and they were seemingly bewlidered by the coaches. During this time, one of the referees for the Varsity game to follow, who was standing up against the wall behind the table, in street clothes, comes to the table and tells the game officials that they need to back away to mid-court and confer, then come back to report.

After conferring for about 5 minutes, they come back to the table, but are having difficulty reporting because Team B coaches are in their faces. Varsity referee gives some more "procedural" advice, and then the game refs go back to midcourt. After another 2 or 3 minutes, they return and report that single flagrant technical fouls are being issued to A3 and A21, along with B15 and B23, and that all four were ejected. At this point, the Varsity Ref tells the game refs that they need to get A25 for leaving the bench.

This is where I see a problem. As it was, A25 didn't "leave the bench" in the first place. A25 was waiting to sub at the table when the jump-ball was called. At the moment I saw that he looked like he might wander onto the court, I stood up and reached across the table and physically pulled him back onto the "X" and told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench. However, even if someone HAD left the bench on either side, is it an accepted practice for an official who just happens to be there to directly intercede in making an observation like that? I'm having a difficult time believeing that it is.

IMHO, I don't really see a problem with the ref giving the procedural advice, and actually think it was a good thing that he was there to do that, otherwise I have no doubts that the situation would have continued to spiral out of control. However, I feel that the rules intend for the officials on the court to administer the game based on what they observe, not based on what other do, no matter who the others are, and no matter their intentions.

Am I off base on any of this? Do any of you officials out there know of or encountered anything like this that might be deemed as an acceptable practice? Thanks in advance for your responses!!
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Old Sat Jan 05, 2008, 03:26am
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As table personnel you are part of the officiating team too. If you had knowledge that A25 was at the table to sub when the fight broke out give that info to the game officials...I'm sure the home scorer and timer saw it too and the 3 of you should have helped.

The important thing in all games is for the correct things be done and the game remain safe. The varsity official aided in that happening. Is it common practice? No, was it the right thing to do under the circumstances? Yes.
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Old Sat Jan 05, 2008, 05:22am
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I don't mind a vastly more experienced official stepping in to help administer a situation in which two of his less experienced colleagues are stuggling. However, I agree with the OP that the help ought to be confined to keeping people away from them to allow them time and space to make their decisions. The decisions about the facts of the game lie solely with the game officials and they can seek assistance from the table crew for certain things, but whether or not to DQ a player for leaving the bench is not one of those.
I would never tell any of my fellow officials to call such and such or give a certain penalty to a person in a game which I was not working, but merely observing. That's not how it works. Of course, we can certainly speak afterwards about what I saw.
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Old Sat Jan 05, 2008, 01:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I don't mind a vastly more experienced official stepping in to help administer a situation in which two of his less experienced colleagues are stuggling. However, I agree with the OP that the help ought to be confined to keeping people away from them to allow them time and space to make their decisions. The decisions about the facts of the game lie solely with the game officials and they can seek assistance from the table crew for certain things, but whether or not to DQ a player for leaving the bench is not one of those.
I would never tell any of my fellow officials to call such and such or give a certain penalty to a person in a game which I was not working, but merely observing. That's not how it works. Of course, we can certainly speak afterwards about what I saw.
The table may help us "fix" stuff all the time...if a ball goes in and none of the officials on the floor saw it...the wrong number reported...timing errors giving definite knowledge.

If a scorer can say yes it went in, or the timer can say I saw the clock at the whistle and it said X so 3 seconds ran off, why can't the table say 25 was at the table subbing in? It is very likely that the officials and the varsity ref saw 25 stand up near the table and thought he went there from the bench.

Nobody is saying that they should make the call, but just like a partner coming to you with relevant info about a call, that info needs to be given so that the game officials can make the correct call.
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Old Sat Jan 05, 2008, 03:08pm
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Thanks for the responses so far.

During one of the "lulls" while the game officials were at midcourt, I gave our coach the heads up to be prepared in the event they started discussing #25. I felt that it would be best to have the coach bring it up, and have him appeal to the officials to ask the table for help, if they did not ask first themselves. The game officials did in fact ask where 25 was when this happened and I replied that he was on the X, stood up when the whistle for the jump-ball occurred and was standing on the edge of the sideline watching when I grabbed him and brought him back to the table (3 feet between two points, but he was never on the court). However, the varsity referee told them that "it doesn't matter what anyone at the table says or saw." Right after saying that though, the varsity ref started back in on insisting to them that 25 had to go.

Since the game officials had to ask the question of "where was 25?", I think it's safe to say that they had no definitive knowledge for themselves. I answered the question when asked; I did not seek to insert myself into the discussion because I didn't feel it was my place as visiting/non-official scorer. It did indeed rub me the wrong way though when the other official proclaimed that it didn't matter what anyone at the table saw, only what the game officials saw, and then proceeded to start telling them what HE saw and encourage action be taken on that. I asked the man then why anything he saw from against the wall 30 feet away should be considered and got the answer, "Because I'm an official too."

Thankfully at the end of everything, 25 was rightfully kept in the game. My concern wasn't for keeping him in the game for the sake of the team in the game, but because any ejection that is fighting-related here carries indefinite suspension until the offender has a hearing with the Section Commissioner, and it stays with the kid until he graduates. If he had left the table and I was asked, I would have said that he left the table, and all our coaches know that I would do that without hesitation. But a player should do the crime in order to get the time.

Last edited by reddevil19; Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 03:21pm.
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2008, 01:01am
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In a fight situation, I'm going to accept all the help I can get as long as I trust the source and do not doubt their veracity.

My first year, in probably my 3rd or 4th assignment, I was working in an auxiliary gym and finished before the game in the main gym. As I was watching, I noticed the clock box was plugged in via an extension cord that wasn't taped to the ground very well -- obviously not a good idea, but that's another issue. Within probably 2 minutes, the cord was kicked and the plug came out. I had just glanced at the scoreboard and told the guys working the game, who came over to me when I motioned for them, what I saw in terms of time remaining. No big deal, just one of those things you can do to help out when weird things happen.

During an altercation, its damn near impossible for 3 officials, much less 2, to see who's involved, who punched, who committed another type of foul, AND who left the bench. If I'm watching, particularly in a subvarsity game and I see the officials who I know having trouble sorting things out, I might go over there and ask if they want my help.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2008, 06:45pm
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I have no problem with the varisty official stepping out to "coach" the junior officials in a tense situation.

I do not think he should be dictating fouls and penalties. At the very most, he could help with a number of a player if the game offiicals already decided to give out a T and they lost the number.

As far as your behavior that the table...I think you were entirely correct in the way you handled it. In fact, you're actually an "official" on the game...far more so than the guy from the sidelines.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2008, 10:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil19
This is where I see a problem. As it was, A25 didn't "leave the bench" in the first place. A25 was waiting to sub at the table when the jump-ball was called. At the moment I saw that he looked like he might wander onto the court, I stood up and reached across the table and physically pulled him back onto the "X" and told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench.
If he didn't wander on to the court how could you have pulled him back on to the X?

That said...if the JV guys were really screwing this up I sort of like that the V ref stepped in to help them if they were in over their heads. "Hey fellas, move away from the coaches and make your ruling" is great advice in this sitch. But I really don't like that they inserted themselves in the final ruling.
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 12:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
If he didn't wander on to the court how could you have pulled him back on to the X?
That said...if the JV guys were really screwing this up I sort of like that the V ref stepped in to help them if they were in over their heads. "Hey fellas, move away from the coaches and make your ruling" is great advice in this sitch. But I really don't like that they inserted themselves in the final ruling.
The way this court was set up is that there is the 3 foot area for inbounding is colored blue. The table, with the "X" taped to the floor directly in front of it, was about another 3 feet further back from that (I hate being that far back from everything, but that's another complaint for another time). When the initial whistle sounded, the player stood up and when the whistles started blowing when the scuffle broke out, I looked up and the kid was now maybe 1/2 a foot onto the blue area, closer to the backcourt (to my right, fight to my left). I pulled him back just to be certain.
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil19
Sorry for the title. Couldn't think of anything better to use as an attention grabber From a JV Boys game earlier tonight/yesterday evening, with team A visitors and team B home. I am scorekeeper for A...

...At this point, the Varsity Ref tells the game refs that they need to get A25 for leaving the bench.

This is where I see a problem. As it was, A25 didn't "leave the bench" in the first place. A25 was waiting to sub at the table when the jump-ball was called. At the moment I saw that he looked like he might wander onto the court, I stood up and reached across the table and physically pulled him back onto the "X" and told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench.

You noted that in a subsequent post that you were not the official book for the game..."I did not seek to insert myself into the discussion because I didn't feel it was my place as visiting/non-official scorer." So, as far as answering the questions the two game officials asked you regarding V#25, I think you were correct to report what you saw happen when asked about it. I would even appreciate a table member's help de-escalating events by preventing a player from doing something wrong or stupid.

However, I have a couple questions for you as a non-member of the officiating crew sitting at the table. You stated you physically refrained A25 from leaving the X and entering the fray (see boldface in your OP above) and "told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench." Later you said "During one of the 'lulls' while the game officials were at midcourt, I gave our coach the heads up to be prepared in the event they started discussing #25. I felt that it would be best to have the coach bring it up, and have him appeal to the officials to ask the table for help, if they did not ask first themselves."

My questions are: 1) If the substitute player waiting to enter the game had been from the home team, i.e., not the team you are associated with, would you have given him, and later his coach, the same consideration and help you did the player from your team? and 2) Would you have been as ready to "help" the officials with the substitute's actions/location if the the sub had been from the home team?

I ask these questions because when I officiate a game I expect the table crew to be unbiased members of the officiating crew. Can I expect a completely honest answer from an unbiased guy sitting at the table? Now I'm not asking these questions to challenge your honesty or integrity or imply you were trying to "pull one over" on the officials...in fact you sound like your actions in this instance were honest and correct. I'm just trying to identify another element of potential confusion for the officials. I wouldn't ask a member of one team for clarifying information and expect a credible or totally honest answer, but if I see you're at the table, in the heat of the moment I may have forgotten or been confused as to who my "table teammates" are. In other words, as a biased observer, should you have ever been asked what you saw? And did you tell the officials you restrained A25 from leaving the X from your position at the table and then later advised the Visiting coach of that information? And no, the Varsity official should not have "helped" beyond the procedural assistance.
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 03:21pm
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I'm going to enter a dissenting opinion here.

I believe it may be better for the two officials on the court to resolve the situation themselves. I am not going to insert myself into the contest unless asked by one of the officials!

I am going to stay back and observe to see how they handle it and try to discuss it with them later. Experience can be the best teacher. They are much more likely to remember the situation and proceed accordingly the next time if they had to navigate for themselves.
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corndog89
You noted that in a subsequent post that you were not the official book for the game..."I did not seek to insert myself into the discussion because I didn't feel it was my place as visiting/non-official scorer." So, as far as answering the questions the two game officials asked you regarding V#25, I think you were correct to report what you saw happen when asked about it. I would even appreciate a table member's help de-escalating events by preventing a player from doing something wrong or stupid.

However, I have a couple questions for you as a non-member of the officiating crew sitting at the table. You stated you physically refrained A25 from leaving the X and entering the fray (see boldface in your OP above) and "told him to kneel there until everything had stopped, so that nobody would think he left the bench." Later you said "During one of the 'lulls' while the game officials were at midcourt, I gave our coach the heads up to be prepared in the event they started discussing #25. I felt that it would be best to have the coach bring it up, and have him appeal to the officials to ask the table for help, if they did not ask first themselves."

My questions are: 1) If the substitute player waiting to enter the game had been from the home team, i.e., not the team you are associated with, would you have given him, and later his coach, the same consideration and help you did the player from your team? and 2) Would you have been as ready to "help" the officials with the substitute's actions/location if the the sub had been from the home team?

I ask these questions because when I officiate a game I expect the table crew to be unbiased members of the officiating crew. Can I expect a completely honest answer from an unbiased guy sitting at the table? Now I'm not asking these questions to challenge your honesty or integrity or imply you were trying to "pull one over" on the officials...in fact you sound like your actions in this instance were honest and correct. I'm just trying to identify another element of potential confusion for the officials. I wouldn't ask a member of one team for clarifying information and expect a credible or totally honest answer, but if I see you're at the table, in the heat of the moment I may have forgotten or been confused as to who my "table teammates" are. In other words, as a biased observer, should you have ever been asked what you saw? And did you tell the officials you restrained A25 from leaving the X from your position at the table and then later advised the Visiting coach of that information? And no, the Varsity official should not have "helped" beyond the procedural assistance.
Corndog, you ask some good questions.

1. I can say without a doubt that had the sub been from the other team in the same situation, I would have made every effort to tell their coach that the player did not in fact leave the table area. I would also have made every attempt to VERBALLY get the player to stay where he was. However, I wouldn't attempt to physically restrain another team's player due to all the garbage that could come along with it.

2. Again, if asked, I would say what I observed happened and hope that the right decisions are made.

Another part of all of this, and something that I think lends to having more possibilities for situations like these to arise in moments of confusion, is that I, the visiting team scorekeeper, was the only ADULT at that table and maybe that's why they asked me and were initially reporting to me (In fact, the home coach interrupted the reporting process to ask why they were reporting to me and not to "his" book. But, indeed, I do recognize that as visiting book, I had no "official" status and was not part of "the table". So yes, I probably should not have been asked, but since I was, I gave the honest answers.

Last edited by reddevil19; Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 04:25pm.
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 04:45pm
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My credo in officiating is a simple one, GET IT RIGHT! and when possible look good doing it. (mechanics wise) That being said I tried to put myself in the shoes of various people out there and see what I would do...

Floor Official: Fight=crazy! Guy off the court offering assistance like that, if I know he is a colleage I might say thanks, if not I'm having the AD move him. When he says I need to get #25 too, I am asking my partner and the table and telling him we'll decide that.

Observing Official: I hate it when I am just watching and crazy things happen to inexperienced officials because I WANT TO HELP! But at the same time I know no matter where I am or who knows who I am anything I do can get very messy. If I know the guys on the court I am going to make sure they see me so they can ask me if they want to. If not, I am going to bite my tongue! We probably share a locker room so after the JV game before I hit the floor we'll talk about it.

Home-Table Official: I always had written down with me who was in and who had reported so I could tell the floor ref 25 had reported in, and when the scuffle broke out I would yell at 25 to hold his spot, but I would never RESTRAIN a player, don't touch!

Away-Table Official: I've never been given the credibility of as a talbe official when away from home.

Evaluator/Assignor: Unfortunately I have to say the observing official acted in an unprofessional way and I would inform him and his assignor of the situation. (I might not agree but that is what I would do)

Coach: "Who the heck is this guy, get him out of here."
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Old Tue Jan 08, 2008, 05:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.
Observing Official: I hate it when I am just watching and crazy things happen to inexperienced officials because I WANT TO HELP! But at the same time I know no matter where I am or who knows who I am anything I do can get very messy. If I know the guys on the court I am going to make sure they see me so they can ask me if they want to. If not, I am going to bite my tongue! We probably share a locker room so after the JV game before I hit the floor we'll talk about it.
I'm in the camp that says this is what the veteran varsity observing official should have done. If the less experienced officials ask for your help, it should only be a "rules" question.

I do agree that the veteran was okay with telling the on-court officials to move away from the table to discuss. He darn shouldn't have been giving details on who should've been ejected.
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Old Wed Jan 09, 2008, 12:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil19
Corndog, you ask some good questions.

1. I can say without a doubt that had the sub been from the other team in the same situation, I would have made every effort to tell their coach that the player did not in fact leave the table area. I would also have made every attempt to VERBALLY get the player to stay where he was. However, I wouldn't attempt to physically restrain another team's player due to all the garbage that could come along with it.

2. Again, if asked, I would say what I observed happened and hope that the right decisions are made.
Understand and based on everything you've said I believe you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil19
Another part of all of this, and something that I think lends to having more possibilities for situations like these to arise in moments of confusion, is that I, the visiting team scorekeeper, was the only ADULT at that table and maybe that's why they asked me and were initially reporting to me (In fact, the home coach interrupted the reporting process to ask why they were reporting to me and not to "his" book. But, indeed, I do recognize that as visiting book, I had no "official" status and was not part of "the table". So yes, I probably should not have been asked, but since I was, I gave the honest answers.
The only adult at the table situation occurs too often and I appreciate the situation you were put in. I'm part of a new association in a new state this year and one of the best things they do is assign a scorekeeper and clock operator to all high school games...it's GREAT!

This is a good post...thanks.
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