Blocked shot with contact

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

1) If the defender cannot make the block without making illegal contact (whether the contact is before or after the block) with the shooter, the defender has commited a foul. PERIOD!

2) The foul tip signal should NEVER be used by a basketball official unless he is the plate umpire in a baseball game or a softball game.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

1)I am not a "if it's not in the rulebook don't use it" camp, but this particular signal will cause you a big problem. How? You signal a tip (clean block) and I come in with a foul.

2) Signal nothing here, since nothing happened.

1) I've been in the middle of that one.

2) You are wise beyond your years.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Last post

First post


Seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.

Do not take part of the comment, take the entire statement.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not believe in "protecting the shooter." I do believe in knowing how the shooter got to the floor. Because I feel a lot of officials call a foul on a bigger player just because there bigger rather than something illegal taking place. In general I cannot see how someone blocks a shot cleanly and they can be called for a foul. Even some clean blocks might result in the shooter going to the floor hard. And for the record I am not talking about a defender the clearly bumps a shooter to block the shoot. That is a foul if the defender was not vertical or in legal guarding position and the contact created a clear advantage to the defender. My main point is that many shooters are out of control and any contact should not be called just because the shooter is already in a bad position or a position they put themselves in.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) If the defender cannot make the block without making contact (whether the contact is before or after the block) with the shooter, the defender has commited a foul. PERIOD!

I completely disagree with that statement. For one basketball is always going to have contact. This would be like expecting there to be no contact on a screen and most of the time legal or illegal screens have some kind of contact. You do not call a foul on the screener just because there is contact. You make a call when illegal contact occurs. The same is on a block. And I have hardly ever seen many blocks where no contact takes place. And I will never call the game that way unless the rule changes drastically.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) The foul tip signal should NEVER be used by a basketball official unless he is the plate umpire in a baseball game or a softball game.

MTD, Sr.

I disagree with this as well. It should not be used on every play, but to day it should not be used is not completely correct. Maybe that is how things are done where you live, but I would not use the word ‘never.’

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I completely disagree with that statement. For one basketball is always going to have contact. This would be like expecting there to be no contact on a screen and most of the time legal or illegal screens have some kind of contact. You do not call a foul on the screener just because there is contact. You make a call when illegal contact occurs. The same is on a block. And I have hardly ever seen many blocks where no contact takes place. And I will never call the game that way unless the rule changes drastically.



I disagree with this as well. It should not be used on every play, but to day it should not be used is not completely correct. Maybe that is how things are done where you live, but I would not use the word ‘never.’

Peace

Rut:

First point: I edited my post to say illegal contact. It was late at night when I made my post. I think that "illegal" is the key word here.

Second point: I stand by my statement. An official looks stupid and invariably while he is making his foul tip signal something that is really illegal happens and he is way late (there is nothing inherently wrong in making a call that is late) in making the call, or misses it entirely.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

MTD, Sr.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I'm always a little fuzzy on it too. I look for hand on the ball first and formost, and go from there. I signal tip every time to show clean block.

Bad move IMO, what if a partner whistles foul? Now you got one coach happy and the other wants to know why he called a foul when you had a clean block. If it ain't a foul, don't blow you whistle...that's how they know.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I completely disagree with that statement. For one basketball is always going to have contact. This would be like expecting there to be no contact on a screen and most of the time legal or illegal screens have some kind of contact. You do not call a foul on the screener just because there is contact. You make a call when illegal contact occurs. The same is on a block. And I have hardly ever seen many blocks where no contact takes place. And I will never call the game that way unless the rule changes drastically.



I disagree with this as well. It should not be used on every play, but to day it should not be used is not completely correct. Maybe that is how things are done where you live, but I would not use the word ‘never.’

Peace

Be careful, always and never are a LONG time.

Really? Seriously? Come on!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

Be careful, always and never are a LONG time.

Really? Seriously? Come on!!

Yes seriously. I do not call body contact on blocked shots that are completely clean. Sorry I do not call the game that way. The defender would have to do something else intentional or flagrant to get contact. Once again, the rules read that "contact can be severe and not be a foul."

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Yes seriously. I do not call body contact on blocked shots that are completely clean. Sorry I do not call the game that way. The defender would have to do something else intentional or flagrant to get contact. Once again, the rules read that "contact can be severe and not be a foul."

Peace

If there was body contact, it wasn't completely clean. The "contact can be severe and not be a foul" refers to opponents trying to reach a loose ball or opponents in equally favorable positions to perform defensive or offensive movements. A shot block does not fit into this description.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, the rules read that "contact can be severe and not be a foul."

And case book play 4-19-3 says that it can be a foul, even if it was "all ball" followed by the contact. Not only that, it can be an intentional foul.

Imo, you can't make a hard and fast rule on it, eother saying that it is always a foul or saying that it is never a foul. You call each play by it's circumstances.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And case book play 4-19-3 says that it can be a foul, even if it was "all ball" followed by the contact. Not only that, it can be an intentional foul.

Imo, you can't make a hard and fast rule on it, eother saying that it is always a foul or saying that it is never a foul. You call each play by it's circumstances.

We will just have to disagree. That might work well on a girl's game that does not work very well on a boy's game in my opinion.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If there was body contact, it wasn't completely clean. The "contact can be severe and not be a foul" refers to opponents trying to reach a loose ball or opponents in equally favorable positions to perform defensive or offensive movements. A shot block does not fit into this description.

If you were going to have body contact anyway (and all contact is not a foul), then I will disagree.

If you want to call any little contact with a shooter that is fine with me. I am telling my philosophy that has worked for years. I have hardly ever had any complaints and when I have had a complaint and a quick response, they understood and got over it. Actually I here much more complaining on blocked shots which involved contact with the body (or arm or head) because all the coach saw was the block above.

And I look at it this way. If I was doing something completely out of the ordinary, I would not be asked back to work for the same people over and over again. And if someone is doing it better, they will find them to work games. And I have never had a major problem with this philosophy or working with other officials that do not share a similar philosophy.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We will just have to disagree. That might work well on a girl's game that does not work very well on a boy's game in my opinion.

I saw about 5 calls like that in various NCAA Mens games today. Fouls called for heavy contact after a clean block. I guess it works on girls games and NCAA mens games, but not in your boys games.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you were going to have body contact anyway (and all contact is not a foul), then I will disagree.

If you want to call any little contact with a shooter that is fine with me. I am telling my philosophy that has worked for years. I have hardly ever had any complaints and when I have had a complaint and a quick response, they understood and got over it. Actually I here much more complaining on blocked shots which involved contact with the body (or arm or head) because all the coach saw was the block above.

And I look at it this way. If I was doing something completely out of the ordinary, I would not be asked back to work for the same people over and over again. And if someone is doing it better, they will find them to work games. And I have never had a major problem with this philosophy or working with other officials that do not share a similar philosophy.

Peace

"And if someone is doing it better, they will find them to work games."

In Illinois? Jeff, let me introduce you to the good ol' boy network.

That just ain't the case.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I saw about 5 calls like that in various NCAA Mens games today. Fouls called for heavy contact after a clean block. I guess it works on girls games and NCAA mens games, but not in your boys games.

You must not have been watching the Memphis-Georgetown game. I saw plenty of times players went to the floor and not a single call was made in the second half when I had the opportunity to watch the game.

Peace