Blocked shot with contact

Originally Posted by ABO77

I have a tough time consistantly calling a player jumping and blocking a try and then make some contact after the block. Somtimes I have a foul...sometimes I dont. It seems everybody has their own opinion on this type of call/no call. I hear some officials treat it kinda like a blocked punt in football...some contact afterwards ok. But the next official will have a foul on the same exact play ...comments.

Lots of good comments here. My view is based on verticality. If the defender stays in his vertical plane and blocks the ball, and then there is contact, no foul. Usually if the defender stays in his vertical plane the contact is initiated by the offense player. If the defernder goes out of his vertical plane, regardless if it is after the shot, it's a foul unless it is deemed incidental. Keep in mind that a bump that occurs after the shot and moves the offense could put him out of position to get a rebound, catch the blocked shot, receive a quick pass back, etc., so claiming there was "no disadvantage" just because it was after the shot is pretty weak IMO.

On a related note, many officials believe defenders need to be "set" with both feet on the ground in order to get the benefit of a charge call. Wrong. I like to see officials sho have the guts to call a charge when the defender jumps vertically and the ballhandler jumps into the defender, or the defender is moving away (i.e., a step backward or to the side) from the advancing ballhandler (who initiates contact) or is set but is turning to protect himself from the collision.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"And if someone is doing it better, they will find them to work games."

In Illinois? Jeff, let me introduce you to the good ol' boy network.

That just ain't the case.

I have probably worked in more parts of Illinois than most. For example just this month I have already have worked in Plainfield (not school but town), Arlington Heights, New Lenox, Canton, was scheduled to work in Glen Ellyn but game was snowed out. I also worked in Blue Island, then Aurora the next day and this week I was in Nauvoo on Thursday and Abingdon on Friday. And that is just this month. By the end of the year I would have worked as far north as Harvard and as far south as Quincy. I will tell you, I am not the typical "in guy" that got to where I did by just knowing people. I go to about 5 camps a year almost every year, I did not start officiating in the Chicago area, but the very first year I moved to this area I received varsity games. I even worked in a couple of conferences that I was told it would take years to get into because I did not have the history working JV and freshman ball. If you are holding on to that "ole boy network" excuse that is perfectly fine with me. I have seen many people that are not in that “system” get games and get very good games because they were seen at the right camp (which anyone can pay to attend) and because they did the right things to prove they could work the games and were willing to work the games that were given.

And if after all of that you still think their is an ole boy network system, then you need to call me on the phone or email me and we need to talk specifics about this issue and I can give you example after example of how this is not the case and why it is not the case.

Peace

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by psycho_ref

These are not rules that effect the way the game is called. These are just additional methods of communicating. WE ARE PIONEERS AND HEROES. Happy holidays.

...so were the monkeys in the spaceships...

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have probably worked in more parts of Illinois than most. For example just this month I have already have worked in Plainfield (not school but town), Arlington Heights, New Lenox, Canton, was scheduled to work in Glen Ellyn but game was snowed out. I also worked in Blue Island, then Aurora the next day and this week I was in Nauvoo on Thursday and Abingdon on Friday. And that is just this month. By the end of the year I would have worked as far north as Harvard and as far south as Quincy. I will tell you, I am not the typical "in guy" that got to where I did by just knowing people. I go to about 5 camps a year almost every year, I did not start officiating in the Chicago area, but the very first year I moved to this area I received varsity games. I even worked in a couple of conferences that I was told it would take years to get into because I did not have the history working JV and freshman ball. If you are holding on to that "ole boy network" excuse that is perfectly fine with me. I have seen many people that are not in that “system” get games and get very good games because they were seen at the right camp (which anyone can pay to attend) and because they did the right things to prove they could work the games and were willing to work the games that were given.

And if after all of that you still think their is an ole boy network system, then you need to call me on the phone or email me and we need to talk specifics about this issue and I can give you example after example of how this is not the case and why it is not the case.

Peace

Jeff

No matter how many individual examples you have, such as yourself, who has earned his schedule through camps, hard work and above all good officiating, there are many more who have strictly by longevity been assigned to games that quite frankly are over their capabilities. At one point in their careers they may have earned those games, but like a tenured college professor, once you're in....... you're in. The statement 'if someone is doing it better, they will find them to do games' I find is altruistic at best.

Assignors neither have the time or inclination to seek out the very 'best' officials. Familarity over the years with officials who have become personal friends would and does make it very difficult to support your position and that's not a gripe, just reality.

Of course there are minimal additions and subtractions to an assignor's 'stable' every year, yet within that core are many officials for a myriad of reasons have not earned nor deserve the schedule they receive.

That said, the system is not patently flawed, it's just the way it is.

I liken it to Chicago city hall politics and patronage, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I doubt I will change your mind, and I know you'll never change mine.

Curious, when you moved here from another area, did you have an introduction from an ex-assignor or did you just show-up blind at camps?

More credit to you for the latter if that was the case.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Jeff

No matter how many individual examples you have, such as yourself, who has earned his schedule through camps, hard work and above all good officiating, there are many more who have strictly by longevity been assigned to games that quite frankly are over their capabilities. At one point in their careers they may have earned those games, but like a tenured college professor, once you're in....... you're in. The statement 'if someone is doing it better, they will find them to do games' I find is altruistic at best.

That is untrue. It is untrue on many levels and it is untrue because there are many examples of people being pushed out, you just have not been around likely to know many of the stories. And they are not pushed out just because the assignor wanted them out; they are pushed out because the coaches and administrators that hire the assignors push them out. But if the coaches and administrators are happy to have the older official that has been through the fire, they will stick around.

Originally Posted by fullor30

Assignors neither have the time or inclination to seek out the very 'best' officials. Familarity over the years with officials who have become personal friends would and does make it very difficult to support your position and that's not a gripe, just reality.

This is completely untrue. In the last 8 or so years I have worked older officials have retired or they have in some cases died and there have been a bunch of newer, younger, athletic officials that have been hired. I am only in my mid-30s but I have worked with many guys that are younger than me lately and they were recently picked up in conferences where assignors have been around. I am very rarely working with the "old guard" as much anymore as I used to. And I have been fired from leagues along with many others when we either disagree with the assignor or we have a game where a coach complains and we get the boot. And there have been state final officials that have gotten the boot in Chicago for not calling the game a certain way or because of some controversy.

Originally Posted by fullor30

Of course there are minimal additions and subtractions to an assignor's 'stable' every year, yet within that core are many officials for a myriad of reasons have not earned nor deserve the schedule they receive.

Then again, that is an opinion and you have every right to that opinion. But your opininon and my opinion does not count. I can tell you this, unless your prove you are have as competent, you are not going to push many out of their positions. The coaches would not allow it. Bottom line is the coaches would rather have a guy they know how that person is going to handle a situation, then a guy they have never seen, do not know how he will handle pressure to make a call or if the other coach can get under your skull. Assignors ultimatlely work for the schools and the coaches. If they put a rookie on a game and the coach does not like that rookie, the assignor is not going to keep giving the rookie games at that school. It is just not going to happen. And frankly, when I watch younger officials, I do not see a lot of guys that I want to work with in a tough game and I have to constantly save you. I like working with guys that can stand on their own two feet and I will help out if you need it in a real pinch. Assignors are looking for Referees, not U2s.

Originally Posted by fullor30

That said, the system is not patently flawed, it's just the way it is.

I liken it to Chicago city hall politics and patronage, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I doubt I will change your mind, and I know you'll never change mine.

You are right. Because the vast majority of officials that I come in contact with that claim the "ole boy network" system as the reason they do not get a shot, usually those are officials that I do not know if they could handle a good JV or Sophomore game. And when I was advancing in this system, 3 man was not even the games I was offered.

Originally Posted by fullor30

Curious, when you moved here from another area, did you have an introduction from an ex-assignor or did you just show-up blind at camps?

More credit to you for the latter if that was the case.

When I move up to the Chicago area the first thing I did was look at a map, figure out where I was willing to drive and called or contacted every assignor I could to see what camps they ran or were associated with and I tried to attend as many of those camps as possible. I already have varsity experience so all I had to do was showcase my ability. After the summer I did this, I was hired off the bat by two assignors to varsity games. I was even told in one of them that I had to prove to some coaches I could work. I even called a T in one of the games I worked in one of the conferences (2 man with a veteran officials). The coach was apparently impressed with me even though I called the T on his player and I got more games in that conference the following year. I was even observed by other officials that recognized my talent and had me work with them directly in games or gave me opportunities I would not have had. I had a sales background even then so I knew how to tell people about my experience and I would ask direct questions to see what I had to do. Every assignor that I currently work for in the Chicago area either saw me at a camp, or received recommendations by the right official that watched me work in front of them (varsity tournament) or saw me at another camp. Then when I showed up to a particular camp, I was observed and in most cases hired for varsity on the spot. I do not say this to brag, but I had the same information at my disposal as anyone else. Most assignors were listed in many association books and their contact information was public. All I had to do was contact the people, listen to what they expected and usually attended camps where they could see what I was about for themselves.

I also have another little secret for you. Many of the assignors do not like each other or respect the other decisions or their staffs. And you are not going to get 20 games from one assignor usually. Most are going to give you 3 to 4 games at most and if you get more you were available or lucky that others were closed and you were on the list. So if you are going to work a full varsity schedule, chances are you will have to work for many people and that is not going to happen because you think you are good and they will just hire you.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) The foul tip signal should NEVER be used by a basketball official unless he is the plate umpire in a baseball game or a softball game.

MTD, Sr.

Or he is a football umpire indicating that the pass was tipped in or behind the neutral zone.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

Bad move IMO, what if a partner whistles foul? Now you got one coach happy and the other wants to know why he called a foul when you had a clean block. If it ain't a foul, don't blow you whistle...that's how they know.

OK.. well due to overwhelming pounding I'm taking on this.. the tip on block has been removed from my mechanics.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Or he is a football umpire indicating that the pass was tipped in or behind the neutral zone.

Or a white hat indicating a punt/kick was partially blocked.

[JoeTheRef]

I totally agree that the "block/tip" mechanic shouldn't be used on a shot, but do any of you use it for a ball that was tipped going into the backcourt? I don't use it, but I've seen others do.

[TheOracle]

Any time you use the block/tip mechanic, it gives fuel to a complaint. Any animus created by not making that signal dissapates a lot fatser with no signal at all. It is the same reason a no call, when play continues, doesn't linger nearly as longin everyone's mind as a touch foul that raises some ire, because play stops.

On the blocked shot/contact thing, you are all arguing a gray area again. At higher levels, they preach exactly what JeffR is saying. You need to determine who made the better play, the shooter or the defender, and not penalize a good play. "Don't screw the defense" is a typical mantra, so unless the defender had no chance to get to the ball without going through the shooter, I'd choose to play on. A huge majority of the time (90-95% for me), the defender makes a good play on a block, or has reasonable verticality, coming over to help on the drive. But it's always a judgment call.

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I totally agree that the "block/tip" mechanic shouldn't be used on a shot, but do any of you use it for a ball that was tipped going into the backcourt? I don't use it, but I've seen others do.

When & if I ever use it, it is to communicate with my partner.

Example: I'm T and A1 shoots the long range air ball that got deflected & goes OOB on partners endline, I'll flash him the "tip" if he signals the wrong direction.

I could also see a C helping a T with a tipped ball going backcourt to prevent the whistle from going off.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is untrue. It is untrue on many levels and it is untrue because there are many examples of people being pushed out, you just have not been around likely to know many of the stories. And they are not pushed out just because the assignor wanted them out; they are pushed out because the coaches and administrators that hire the assignors push them out. But if the coaches and administrators are happy to have the older official that has been through the fire, they will stick around.



This is completely untrue. In the last 8 or so years I have worked older officials have retired or they have in some cases died and there have been a bunch of newer, younger, athletic officials that have been hired. I am only in my mid-30s but I have worked with many guys that are younger than me lately and they were recently picked up in conferences where assignors have been around. I am very rarely working with the "old guard" as much anymore as I used to. And I have been fired from leagues along with many others when we either disagree with the assignor or we have a game where a coach complains and we get the boot. And there have been state final officials that have gotten the boot in Chicago for not calling the game a certain way or because of some controversy.



Then again, that is an opinion and you have every right to that opinion. But your opininon and my opinion does not count. I can tell you this, unless your prove you are have as competent, you are not going to push many out of their positions. The coaches would not allow it. Bottom line is the coaches would rather have a guy they know how that person is going to handle a situation, then a guy they have never seen, do not know how he will handle pressure to make a call or if the other coach can get under your skull. Assignors ultimatlely work for the schools and the coaches. If they put a rookie on a game and the coach does not like that rookie, the assignor is not going to keep giving the rookie games at that school. It is just not going to happen. And frankly, when I watch younger officials, I do not see a lot of guys that I want to work with in a tough game and I have to constantly save you. I like working with guys that can stand on their own two feet and I will help out if you need it in a real pinch. Assignors are looking for Referees, not U2s.



You are right. Because the vast majority of officials that I come in contact with that claim the "ole boy network" system as the reason they do not get a shot, usually those are officials that I do not know if they could handle a good JV or Sophomore game. And when I was advancing in this system, 3 man was not even the games I was offered.



When I move up to the Chicago area the first thing I did was look at a map, figure out where I was willing to drive and called or contacted every assignor I could to see what camps they ran or were associated with and I tried to attend as many of those camps as possible. I already have varsity experience so all I had to do was showcase my ability. After the summer I did this, I was hired off the bat by two assignors to varsity games. I was even told in one of them that I had to prove to some coaches I could work. I even called a T in one of the games I worked in one of the conferences (2 man with a veteran officials). The coach was apparently impressed with me even though I called the T on his player and I got more games in that conference the following year. I was even observed by other officials that recognized my talent and had me work with them directly in games or gave me opportunities I would not have had. I had a sales background even then so I knew how to tell people about my experience and I would ask direct questions to see what I had to do. Every assignor that I currently work for in the Chicago area either saw me at a camp, or received recommendations by the right official that watched me work in front of them (varsity tournament) or saw me at another camp. Then when I showed up to a particular camp, I was observed and in most cases hired for varsity on the spot. I do not say this to brag, but I had the same information at my disposal as anyone else. Most assignors were listed in many association books and their contact information was public. All I had to do was contact the people, listen to what they expected and usually attended camps where they could see what I was about for themselves.

I also have another little secret for you. Many of the assignors do not like each other or respect the other decisions or their staffs. And you are not going to get 20 games from one assignor usually. Most are going to give you 3 to 4 games at most and if you get more you were available or lucky that others were closed and you were on the list. So if you are going to work a full varsity schedule, chances are you will have to work for many people and that is not going to happen because you think you are good and they will just hire you.

Peace

Little late on the reply,work, family and Christmas got in the way.

I told you we wouldn't agree It most certainly does exist and our frame of references are disparate, It's a matter of what degree. Does it permeate the system? No, but it does exist.

Believe as you wish. If this was a ruling conundrum we could arrive at the correct answer. I respect your opinion.

Not much of a secret regarding assignors at least from my dealings. You're further down the road than I am, but I had the lay of the land my first year.

Happy New Year!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Little late on the reply,work, family and Christmas got in the way.

I told you we wouldn't agree It most certainly does exist and our frame of references are disparate, It's a matter of what degree. Does it permeate the system? No, but it does exist.

I never stated there was not some kind of political structure in place. I am just saying it is not the end all be all of assigning. And just like anything if you do not understand the system you are working in, you will likely not be very successful. You always need to know the "do's and don'ts" of any system. We definitely have them, but they are not things most officials cannot easily overcome.

Originally Posted by fullor30

Believe as you wish. If this was a ruling conundrum we could arrive at the correct answer. I respect your opinion.

Not much of a secret regarding assignors at least from my dealings. You're further down the road than I am, but I had the lay of the land my first year.

Happy New Year!

Do not assume disagreement with disrespect. We both have different experiences and that shapes many people's opinions on just about anything we talk about here. I just think just like anything the longer you do something, the more you understand the ins and outs of this situation. I did not understand much of anything about the systems I have been in after the first few years. Hell, I have learned things in the past couple of years I did not realize for almost 10 years. But we can talk about this further at another time and off this site. There are a lot of things people do not realize until you talk to certain "in the know" people (and at the right time).

You also have a good New Year and have a blessed New Year as well.

Peace

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I'm always a little fuzzy on it too. I look for hand on the ball first and formost, and go from there. I signal tip every time to show clean block.

Sorry if this has been said, but I haven't had a lot of computer time the last few days. The "foul-tip" mechanic can get you in trouble. For example, my last game before break, my partner is L, doing the "foul tip" and I'm C with my fist in the air. That doesn't look the best.

[johnny1784]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I'm always a little fuzzy on it too. I look for hand on the ball first and formost, and go from there. I signal tip every time to show clean block.

Is this a required or optional mechanic used during live ball?

Let me check my books...