Stoudemire's blocked shot

[ChuckElias]

If you watch SportsCenter, or any other morning highlight show, you've seen it by now. If you haven't seen it, here's the play. Duncan jumps to dunk the ball into his basket. He carries the ball into the cylinder; but before it enters the basket, Stoudemire is able to block the shot and knock it away.

I don't really care to discuss this in terms of NBA rules. (The announcers made a big deal of saying it was legal, although I'm not completely convinced.) Let's talk NCAA and FED.

Is it legal for a defender to touch a ball that the offensive player has carried into the cylinder? Does the ruling change if the offensive player's hand is no longer in contact with the ball? Here's the FED's "exception" to the BI rule:

In Articles 1 or 2, if a player has his/her hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if such contact with the ball continues after it enters a basket cylinder or if in such action, the player touches teh basket. Dunking or stuffing is legal and is not basket interference.

In the play last night, Stoudemire's hand was not in contact with the ball outside the cylinder, and then continuing into the cylinder. He reached into the cylinder after the ball was already there and then touched the ball.

So what's the ruling? Legal, b/c the ball was legally carried into the cylinder? Or BI, b/c the contact was not initially outside the cylinder?

[truerookie]

Chuck
I see it different from you. Stoudemire hand was outside the cylinder his wrist was bent backward at the cylinder where he met Duncan with the ball. I say it was a clean block.

[SeanFitzRef]

Chuck,

from the one slo-mo replay angle it showed last night, it looked as if Stoudemire did contact it prior to it entering the cylinder, and the force of Duncan's momentum carried his hand into the cylinder. Split-second reaction watching last night, even in a Fed or NCAA game, no call. Duncan was going for the stuff, so flight of ball hadn't been determined (never left Duncan's hand).

[Jurassic Referee]

Basket interference by the defense. The exception to the BI rule applies only and solely to the player trying to dunk. As there is no rule saying that they don't also apply, The BI restrictions still must apply to the other 9 players on the floor.

[M&M Guy]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought about that possibility. I guess my initial reaction the first time I saw it was it was a great block. But the more I saw it the more I got to thinking like Chuck - Stoudemire's hand was in the cylinder, so why wouldn't it be BI? If I was there and had to call the play immediately, I would have to say great block. I'm not sure if the defense should be penalized if the offense is contacting the ball in that same area. I thought the intent of the GT/BI rules were to keep players from just standing around the basket swatting balls around like a goaltender in hockey (remember that sport?). So if the rules allow an offensive player in the cylinder in this instance (a dunk), why can't the defense be allowed to block? Maybe this is one of those "if the rules don't disallow it, it must be legal" vs. "if the rules don't specify it, then it's illegal" arguments.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by truerookie
Stoudemire hand was outside the cylinder his wrist was bent backward at the cylinder where he met Duncan with the ball. I say it was a clean block.

Originally posted by SeanFitzRef
from the one slo-mo replay angle it showed last night, it looked as if Stoudemire did contact it prior to it entering the cylinder, and the force of Duncan's momentum carried his hand into the cylinder

Well, I just watched it again on ESPN, and I disagree. The ball had broken the cylinder that has the ring as its base before Stoudamire touched it.

But that's irrelevant, really. I'd like to discuss the play the way I described it, even if it didn't happen precisely that way.

If Stoudamire didn't touch it until it was already in the cylinder, do you guys think it's legal or BI?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
So if the rules allow an offensive player in the cylinder in this instance (a dunk), why can't the defense be allowed to block?

MM, this is exactly the thought that ran through my head. If the ball got there legally, maybe it's legal for the defender to touch it too. But after reading the rule, I really think it's BI.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The exception to the BI rule applies only and solely to the player trying to dunk.

While I agree that it's BI, I disagree with this bit, JR. Read the exception again. It doesn't stipulate who is touching the ball as it gets carried into the cylinder. All it says is that if you're touching the ball outside the cylinder and then you continue to touch it as it enters the cylinder, it's not BI.

So if Stoudamire had touched it before Duncan brought it into the cylinder, I think the exception would apply to both of them, no?

[SeanFitzRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
So if Stoudamire had touched it before Duncan brought it into the cylinder, I think the exception would apply to both of them, no?

In this instance, I say no BI. My interpretation on this would be that IF the momentum carried his hand into the cylinder, you can't penalize him for the good defensive play.

[JRutledge]

It is funny how I was thinking the same thing as I watched the replay over and over again. I still think that without a specific interpretation, I think you cannot have GT or BI on a dunk. This is just one man's opinion. I can see not everyone agrees.

Peace

[truerookie]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Well, I just watched it again on ESPN, and I disagree. The ball had broken the cylinder that has the ring as its base before Stoudamire touched it.

But that's irrelevant, really. I'd like to discuss the play the way I described it, even if it didn't happen precisely that way.

If Stoudamire didn't touch it until it was already in the cylinder, do you guys think it's legal or BI?

I will say BI.

[bigwhistle]

When does a dunk attempt turn into a shot? Does the ball have to be out of the dunker's hand before this happens? If not, then the actual call should be goal tending. You would have all elements necessary: 1) shot attempt 2) downward flight 3) above the rim 4) with a chance to go in.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
When does a dunk attempt turn into a shot? Does the ball have to be out of the dunker's hand before this happens? If not, then the actual call should be goal tending. You would have all elements necessary: 1) shot attempt 2) downward flight 3) above the rim 4) with a chance to go in.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

You don't need a try for BI to occur.

If it's in the cylinder it can't be GT.

If touched outside the cylinder the try must be in flight to be GT, which it is not because it's a dunk.



[Edited by Dan_ref on May 31st, 2005 at 11:57 AM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Basket interference by the defense. The exception to the BI rule applies only and solely to the player trying to dunk. As there is no rule saying that they don't also apply, The BI restrictions still must apply to the other 9 players on the floor.

It seems obvious that that's the intent of the rule. But the wording is poor, as usual. Just taking the rule with the words as written, Chuck's right that if the defender was touching the ball before it entered the cylinder, it's legal for that touching to continue. I think we can let the rules committee off the hook, though, since the chances of this happening in a Fed game are probably about 99.99 against.

I'd be interested in hearing if the NCAA wording and general interp would be different.

[Mark Padgett]

Here's the NBA rule from their website. It would appear that if the ball was in the cylinder, it's a violation even when blocking a dunk attempt according to "b". On the replay I saw (during the game right after it happened), it did not appear to me that the ball was in the cylinder when blocked.

RULE NO. 11-BASKETBALL INTERFERENCE-GOALTENDING

Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket.
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.
c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.
d. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched any part of the backboard above ring level, whether the ball is considered on its upward or downward flight.
e. During a field goal attempt, touch a ball after it has touched the backboard below the ring level and while the ball is on its upward flight.
f. Trap the ball against the face of the backboard. (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)
g. Touch any live ball from within the playing area that is on its downward flight with an opportunity to touch the basket ring. This is considered to be a "field goal attempt" or trying for a goal.
h. Touch the ball at any time with a hand which is through the basket ring.
i. Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce.
PENALTY: If the violation is at the opponent's basket, the offended team is awarded two points, if the attempt is from the two point zone and three points if it is from the three point zone. The crediting of the score and subsequent procedure is the same as if the awarded score has resulted from the ball having gone through the basket, except that the official shall hand the ball to a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. If the violation is at a team's own basket, no points can be scored and the ball is awarded to the offended team at the free throw line extended on either sideline. If there is a violation by both teams, play shall be resumed by a jump ball between any two opponents at the center circle.