Blocked shot with contact

[johnny1784]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

When & if I ever use it, it is to communicate with my partner.

Example: I'm T and A1 shoots the long range air ball that got deflected & goes OOB on partners endline, I'll flash him the "tip" if he signals the wrong direction.

I could also see a C helping a T with a tipped ball going backcourt to prevent the whistle from going off.

I agree you may use it during a dead ball to communicate to your partner(s) or you could try at&t your communication loud and proud.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never stated there was not some kind of political structure in place. I am just saying it is not the end all be all of assigning. And just like anything if you do not understand the system you are working in, you will likely not be very successful. You always need to know the "do's and don'ts" of any system. We definitely have them, but they are not things most officials cannot easily overcome.



Do not assume disagreement with disrespect. We both have different experiences and that shapes many people's opinions on just about anything we talk about here. I just think just like anything the longer you do something, the more you understand the ins and outs of this situation. I did not understand much of anything about the systems I have been in after the first few years. Hell, I have learned things in the past couple of years I did not realize for almost 10 years. But we can talk about this further at another time and off this site. There are a lot of things people do not realize until you talk to certain "in the know" people (and at the right time).

You also have a good New Year and have a blessed New Year as well.

Peace

Glad we could meet in the middle on this, When I bump into you down the road(probably you correcting me at a clinic!! ) we can chat.....

[Jimgolf]

Jeff, are you saying that when a defender jumps into a shooter and makes contact with the body, you don't have a foul unless the contact is flagrant?

Or do you mean when the defender jumps straight up, you don't have a foul on body contact?

If the defender is jumping into a shooter and makes body contact, the arm contact is relatively inconsequential. The shooter is likely to miss whether the shot is blocked or not.

However, if the defender is jumping straight up, the shooter is really responsible for the body contact.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Jeff, are you saying that when a defender jumps into a shooter and makes contact with the body, you don't have a foul unless the contact is flagrant?

Or do you mean when the defender jumps straight up, you don't have a foul on body contact?

If the defender is jumping into a shooter and makes body contact, the arm contact is relatively inconsequential. The shooter is likely to miss whether the shot is blocked or not.

However, if the defender is jumping straight up, the shooter is really responsible for the body contact.

Just because there is body contact does not constitute there is a foul period. And it is not my job to "protect the shooter." And when the defender clearly blocks the ball without contact, then contact occurs I am not calling a foul to "protect the shooter." Incidental contact rules are very clear and I have no problem letting contact go in these situations.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Just because there is body contact does not constitute there is a foul period. And it is not my job to "protect the shooter." And when the defender clearly blocks the ball without contact, then contact occurs I am not calling a foul to "protect the shooter." Incidental contact rules are very clear and I have no problem letting contact go in these situations.

Peace

Rut:

At the H.S. level, if B1 cannot block A1's shot without making contact with the B1, B1 has fouled A1. I am sorry, but blocking the shot before having contact does not give B1 a free pass. Jumping to block A1's shot is just part of B1's defensive responsibilities. B1 must also be able to do it without contacting A1 after the block, such as return to the playing surface or not hitting A1's arm or body. If B1 cannot do that then he has committed a foul against A1.

And that goes for the college game too. We officials are the problem in this situation. Just like the fans we see the great block and then forget that the defender has to complete his responsibilities without fouling. Everybody is screaming great block and then the defender hits the shooter's arm and lands on the shooter. We has officials have to do our job and see the whole play, NOT just the block.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rut:

At the H.S. level, if B1 cannot block A1's shot without making contact with the B1, B1 has fouled A1. I am sorry, but blocking the shot before having contact does not give B1 a free pass. Jumping to block A1's shot is just part of B1's defensive responsibilities. B1 must also be able to do it without contacting A1 after the block, such as return to the playing surface or not hitting A1's arm or body. If B1 cannot do that then he has committed a foul against A1.

And that goes for the college game too. We officials are the problem in this situation. Just like the fans we see the great block and then forget that the defender has to complete his responsibilities without fouling. Everybody is screaming great block and then the defender hits the shooter's arm and lands on the shooter. We has officials have to do our job and see the whole play, NOT just the block.

MTD, Sr.

I disagree with you. And it appears that Hank Nichols disagrees with you as well. Because he put out many bulletins over the years or had plays on the tape that told officials not to call fouls just because there was contact with the defender and shooter. The NCAA showed several tapes where officials called fouls on defenders and they were doing nothing.

I also never said, "free pass." That is not even terminology that I would even use. And contact on blocked shots is inevitable; you have to decide if that contact is illegal. I tend to pass on contact just because there is contact and consider it a foul in these situations.

And I also find it so funny that officials get so caught up in what is illegal when it comes to the shooter, but officials allow all kinds of illegal acts throughout the game, but if you touch the shooter that just goes too far. The airborne shooter rule is so sacred that officials allow all kinds of illegal contact on dribblers, rebounding and screens, but touch the shooter and we have to call something. I find that logic a little odd.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree with you. And it appears that Hank Nichols disagrees with you as well. Because he put out many bulletins over the years or had plays on the tape that told officials not to call fouls just because there was contact with the defender and shooter. The NCAA showed several tapes where officials called fouls on defenders and they were doing nothing.

I also never said, "free pass." That is not even terminology that I would even use. And contact on blocked shots is inevitable; you have to decide if that contact is illegal. I tend to pass on contact just because there is contact and consider it a foul in these situations.

And I also find it so funny that officials get so caught up in what is illegal when it comes to the shooter, but officials allow all kinds of illegal acts throughout the game, but if you touch the shooter that just goes too far. The airborne shooter rule is so sacred that officials allow all kinds of illegal contact on dribblers, rebounding and screens, but touch the shooter and we have to call something. I find that logic a little odd.

Peace

Rut:

It is real simple, if the only way that the defender can block the shot is to make contact (before, during, or after the block) with the shooter, then the contact is a foul.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rut:

It is real simple, if the only way that the defender can block the shot is to make contact (before, during, or after the block) with the shooter, then the contact is a foul.

MTD, Sr.

If you are saying all contact with a shooter is a foul, I would continue to disagree with you. Contact is apart of the game and if contact does not change what someone would do normally in their movement, it is not a foul. We are just going to have to disagree. And a block of all things rarely ever occurs without some or significant contact.

Peace

[btaylor64]

ABO77,

I just got into this thread so I'm not going to remotely try to read all the posts so if I reply the same as someone else... listen to that person too. haha.


This is a very difficult play to referee sometimes. I think you are right to say sometimes you have a foul on it and sometimes you don't, just make sure you have a reason and explanation of why you are reffing each play as you do. Don't be inconsistent in blowing one and then the same type play happens and you don't blow.


I hate, for whatever reason, using advantage/disadvantage all the time cause I believe there are some plays out there that need a whistle regardless of advantage/disadvantage, but it wouldn't be bad to use it here I guess.

Anyway, on plays to the hoop where the defender is coming from behind, you want to judge when the defender makes contact with the offensive player. Does he block the shot and then make contact? If so, how much contact? Enough to warrant to whistle? IMO these type plays with a blocked shot and then contact, I prefer a play-on unless the contact is sooo much that I can't ignore, i.e., running the guy into the stantion.

Plays that start with contact and then a block, I will 9 out of 10 times come up with a foul. The contact has to be marginal for me to come up with nothing though.

As you can tell this is very subjective, but try not to question yourself too much. Just always try to remember this question and see if it helps. "If this game was on tape, would the tape validate my call on this play or would it just show a clean block?"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

This is a very difficult play to referee sometimes. I think you are right to say sometimes you have a foul on it and sometimes you don't, just make sure you have a reason and explanation of why you are reffing each play as you do. Don't be inconsistent in blowing one and then the same type play happens and you don't blow.

I hate, for whatever reason, using advantage/disadvantage all the time cause I believe there are some plays out there that need a whistle regardless of advantage/disadvantage, but it wouldn't be bad to use it here I guess.

Anyway, on plays to the hoop where the defender is coming from behind, you want to judge when the defender makes contact with the offensive player. Does he block the shot and then make contact? If so, how much contact? Enough to warrant to whistle? IMO these type plays with a blocked shot and then contact, I prefer a play-on unless the contact is sooo much that I can't ignore, i.e., running the guy into the stantion.

Plays that start with contact and then a block, I will 9 out of 10 times come up with a foul. The contact has to be marginal for me to come up with nothing though.

As you can tell this is very subjective, but try not to question yourself too much. Just always try to remember this question and see if it helps. "If this game was on tape, would the tape validate my call on this play or would it just show a clean block?"

Hmmmmmm........

Well stated and logical too imo.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are saying all contact with a shooter is a foul, I would continue to disagree with you. Contact is apart of the game and if contact does not change what someone would do normally in their movement, it is not a foul. We are just going to have to disagree. And a block of all things rarely ever occurs without some or significant contact.

Peace

Rut:

1) Congratulations on Blue's win yesterday.

2) An even better way to look at the play is forget about the block period. If the contact would be a foul if B1 was not trying to block the shot and only trying to defend the shooter, then the contact is a foul even if B1 does block the shot.

3) Go BUCKEYES!!

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rut:

1) Congratulations on Blue's win yesterday.

2) An even better way to look at the play is forget about the block period. If the contact would be a foul if B1 was not trying to block the shot and only trying to defend the shooter, then the contact is a foul even if B1 does block the shot.

3) Go BUCKEYES!!

MTD, Sr.

1) Thanks I guess.

2) Actually whether there is a block or not is not how I judge a foul. Players going to the basket are not going to get bailed out by me just because there was some contact. I feel the same way even if a block is not present. I am not calling a foul on a shooter that tries to do something they are not likely to complete if I have a serious choice between a foul or calling nothing. For example, a shooter going to the basket jumping between multiple defenders is not going to get a foul just because there is contact. The defenders are getting the benefit of the doubt on 50/50 plays.

3) I am wondering if you are going to finally beat an SEC team.

Peace