ms game... college atmospher

[Bearfanmike20]

I was doing a ms trio last night. 6th, 7th and 8th. Wow.. just wow. It was small gym and the crowd was right on top of you. maybe.. 50 people in the stands. Not that many, but they were LOUD. Deafeningly LOUD. I think my ears are still ringing.

Any way.. both coaches were screamers. Almost had my first T. A1 (Blue) driving down the lane. Going up for a basket and B1 (white) gets him on the arm. I call the foul. Whole place erupts. Coach is like "why??" I report and as I'm walking back to the other end I calmly say to the coach, "He got him on the arm coach" He start screaming as I walk away, "His feet were on the ground it shouldn't be a shooting foul" He kept screaming that over and over again.

I pointed to him and said "Coach thats enough!!". He stopped.

My partner had to tell the other coach to "Sit Down" on another call he made.

Also had another call.
A1 (white) Driving down the lane, B1 (blue) trying to get into posistion I'm ready to call the block, but at the last second A1 lifts his elbow right into the chest of B1. I call the player control foul. Place errupts. It was the right call IMO because of the elbow.

Anyway.. crazy night.. lots of fun though.

ps... confirmation please...

In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

ps... confirmation please...

In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

Look up various rules pertaining to this phrase. Then you tell us.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Look up various rules pertaining to this phrase. Then you tell us.

4-41-1

The act of shooting begins simultaniously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

What I take from that is that you do not have to be airborne to be attempting the shot, so I made the right call. Thats what I thought.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

What I take from that is that you do not have to be airborne to be attempting the shot, so I made the right call. Thats what I thought.

Correct, all you have to do is "begin" the act of shooting which includes the normal pre-attempt movements...for instance think of a player going up for a layup, once they take that step where the pivot foot has been lifted and the non-pivot is on the floor before they jump off of it, that is all part of the normal movement preceeding a try...included in the try even though the player has yet to leave the ground..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Correct, all you have to do is "begin" the act of shooting which includes the normal pre-attempt movements...for instance think of a player going up for a layup, once they take that step where the pivot foot has been lifted and the non-pivot is on the floor before they jump off of it, that is all part of the normal movement preceeding a try...included in the try even though the player has yet to leave the ground..

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

[Rich]

Never underestimate the power of a middle school game.

About 12 years ago I was trying to break into the varsity roster where I lived at the time (I was a recent transplant). Another guy in the same boat and I were scheduled for a middle school game between two rivals. I was a poor graduate student and would work a MS game at 4PM and then a JV game at 6PM somewhere else, if I could.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I've never seen a gym so packed full and so loud.

The home coach wasn't happy with a shooting foul I called with 2 seconds left. The free throws won the game and we needed a police escort out. The home coach sent a tape to the supervisor asking for our heads and the supervisor told him he watched the entire game and it was superbly officiated from beginning to end. I'm convinced my promotion to the varsity roster the following month had a lot to do with this game.

In your situation: Don't be "ready to call the block." Referee the defense, anticipate the PLAY, and let the play happen. Anticipating the block can lead to bad things happening, especially if there's a double whistle and you are quick to signal block (while your partner signals a PC foul). And when you work up to higher levels, the kids are more athletic and can avoid fouling when it looks like there's no way they could possibly do so.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

I the case of a layup, I agree.

One place where foot movements are significant is post play. If the post player gets the entry pass with his back to the basket, his foot movement, as part of his move to the basket, get my consideration when deciding if he was in the act or not when he gets fouled.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.
Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

Wow, I never heard this explained in this manner. Very is to relate, explain and to teach it this way. Thanks.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

Excellent post........

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

What I take from that is that you do not have to be airborne to be attempting the shot, so I made the right call. Thats what I thought.

Yes, you did. This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant. Even if an airborne shooter is fouled prior to jumping, it could be a shooting foul if his attempt had started prior to the contact.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, you did. This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant. Even if an airborne shooter is fouled prior to jumping, it could be a shooting foul if his attempt had started prior to the contact.

While I don't use 'on the floor', the phrase to me signifies where the ball is spotted and is more a verbal confirmation to my partners and 'selling' the call to spectators and coaches that the foul occured was prior to an attempt. I've never associated 'on the floor' with your reference. JMO

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, you did. This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant. Even if an airborne shooter is fouled prior to jumping, it could be a shooting foul if his attempt had started prior to the contact.

I know lets play pick the right response!

Look at the two statements below:

A) The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position.

B) After a player has started a try for a goal, he is permitted to complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled may complete the ususal foot or body movement... These privilges are granted only when the ususal throwing motion has started...


OK which one is the NBA rule and which one is the NFHS rule?

My point is that high school refs are afraid to call act of shooting when it is really there and too afraid to hear "Hey ref were not NBA continuation!"

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I was doing a ms trio last night. 6th, 7th and 8th. Wow.. just wow. It was small gym and the crowd was right on top of you. maybe.. 50 people in the stands. Not that many, but they were LOUD. Deafeningly LOUD. I think my ears are still ringing.

Any way.. both coaches were screamers. Almost had my first T. A1 (Blue) driving down the lane. Going up for a basket and B1 (white) gets him on the arm. I call the foul. Whole place erupts. Coach is like "why??" I report and as I'm walking back to the other end I calmly say to the coach, "He got him on the arm coach" He start screaming as I walk away, "His feet were on the ground it shouldn't be a shooting foul" He kept screaming that over and over again.

I pointed to him and said "Coach thats enough!!". He stopped.

My partner had to tell the other coach to "Sit Down" on another call he made.

Also had another call.
A1 (white) Driving down the lane, B1 (blue) trying to get into posistion I'm ready to call the block, but at the last second A1 lifts his elbow right into the chest of B1. I call the player control foul. Place errupts. It was the right call IMO because of the elbow.

Anyway.. crazy night.. lots of fun though.

ps... confirmation please...

In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

Games assigned by JM or CM?

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Games assigned by JM or CM?

JM

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

. . . . In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring .