ms game... college atmospher

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by fullor30

"PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP"


"Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events".

Coach................ a little crisp today? He's a relatively new official who comes here for improvement and to learn something. Try offering your solutions sans the editorial comment.

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yes, you did. This is why I hate it when officials say "on the floor" when the foul was before the shot. "On the floor" is irrelevant. Even if an airborne shooter is fouled prior to jumping, it could be a shooting foul if his attempt had started prior to the contact.

I know lets play pick the right response!

Look at the two statements below:

A) The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position.

B) After a player has started a try for a goal, he is permitted to complete customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled may complete the ususal foot or body movement... These privilges are granted only when the ususal throwing motion has started...


OK which one is the NBA rule and which one is the NFHS rule?

My point is that high school refs are afraid to call act of shooting when it is really there and too afraid to hear "Hey ref were not NBA continuation!"

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Fullor30:
Formerly a coach, took a pay cut to become an official!!!!
On a crusade against officials who constantly kick this call because they fail to grasp that the simple requirements for establishing LGP, ie;feet on floor and inbounds(4-23-2 a&b), are preliminary to, and separate from, the movements allowed to maintain LGP (4-23-3 a thru e) and they have to be considered in their individual contexts and timeframes.
I am really tired of officials who cannot escape the playground vernacular of "He was moving" or "He was not set"
I am convinced that a significant percentage of our officiating brethren still operate on this bogus interpretation and routinely penalize the defense.
/off soapbox

Try not to be too tired with the new guys, we were all there at some point.

Learning every day.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Try not to be too tired with the new guys, we were all there at some point.

Learning every day.

Also wanted to reference your previous post also . I do other sports and utilize other forums. Had a coach go off on me over there. Still read that forum but definetly don't put myself out there. Not because I'm all touchy feely like I'm from Oregon or something but got tired of him chasing me around the Net......

[Jimgolf]

ps... confirmation please...
In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

The jump shot was "invented" by Hank Luisetti of Stanford in the 40s. Before that there must have been no shooting fouls.

Whether a try for a basket is being attempted or not is a judgment call. That doesn't mean it's arbitrary and capricious. Judgment requires applying knowledge, experience, rule and reason. Sometimes a player is going up for a shot, gets contact from the defender, and passes the ball because a shot is now impossible. Sometimes a player is looking to pass, gets contact from the defender, and forces up a prayer. Your judgment determines whether a try is being attempted, not some urban legends from a coach.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Also wanted to reference your previous post also . I do other sports and utilize other forums. Had a coach go off on me over there. Still read that forum but definetly don't put myself out there. Not because I'm all touchy feely like I'm from Oregon or something but got tired of him chasing me around the Net......

If I understand you correctly you are implying that you should be able to 'bare your soul' here with a modicum of ridicule as most of us here are transparent. I agree. At association meetings I may be reluctant to ask a rules question to avoid looking foolish. Here you can fire away and not take too much heat.

[justacoach]

Bearfan, you have lucidly described the sequence of events but your misapprehension of the definitions in 4-23 are impairing your ability to make the correct call. Think of it this way.....

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Yes he was facing the ball handler,

Assuming he was inbounds and had feet on floor, does this not constitute INITIAL LGP? then

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

he slid over in front of an (already moving -this is immaterial) ball handler

So long as he was sliding sideways and not toward the ball handler, and reached his spot on the floor first, this is a legally condoned motion to maintain his LGP. Elbow to the throat notwithstanding, if illegal contact results in displacement of the defender, this is PC foul in my book.

Sorry for making you my designated whipping boy, nothing personal intended

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by fullor30

If I understand you correctly you are implying that you should be able to 'bare your soul' here with a modicum of ridicule as most of us here are transparent. I agree. At association meetings I may be reluctant to ask a rules question to avoid looking foolish. Here you can fire away and not take too much heat.

That is correct. I can kick something, come here, find out how to do it right and it doesn't impact my ratings, schedules etc.

What i really like about here is reading about doing it the right way. Unfortunately I don't get quite as much accurate information
from the vets in my area......

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Yes.. Understandable.. but.. the defender never got both feet on the floor to initially establish LGP. Therefor he had on right to maintain it by shuffling if he never established it in the first place.

I think part of the problem was your use of the word "set." That's fanspeak, and normally indicative of a misunderstanding of the rules. Nothing says he has to be "set." He can even be moving and establish LGP at the same time, as long as he's facing the opponent with both feet on the floor for even a split second.

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

. . . . In the act of shooting doesn't mean the the player has to leave the ground.

I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring .

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

I had a similar situation with a coach (a dad) the other day as well. Just to set the stage, it was a 4/5th grade girls game, Team A winning at the half something like 20-5. Team A was mostly 4th graders last year, so mostly 5th graders this year; Team B probably equally mixed. Coach B is a yeller, and IMO a bit of an AH to his kids (not a lot of coaching .. more or less he just yells at them). At halftime Coach B comes up to me and angrily states that his kids are "getting hacked out there." I reply that my partner and I are calling what we see (both teams earned 5/6 fouls during the first half). Coach replies, "Yeah, right." ..... WHACK!

In the second half A1 is near the free throw line. She is a tiny thing and "winds up" before she shoots. A1 gets the ball, she is facing the basket, looking directly at it. She lowers the ball to about waist level and then starts to bring it up when B1 grabs her arm. I call the foul .. two shots. Coach B is all bent out of shape, asking how it can be a shooting foul since the ball never left her hands. I inform him that she was "in the act of shooting" and then proceed with the free throws (I also remind Coach B that he needs to remain seated ). Coach's facial expression made it clear that he thought I was HUA on the shooting foul.

Same coach earlier in the game had "never heard of that" with respect to a free throw having to hit the rim in order for it to be playable.

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

BTW, we give the coaches and extra 10 seconds because when a player leaves the game (fouls/injury) they have to make adjustments with respect to mandatory playing time for the kids.

I wonder what this weekend will bring .

Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Following week Coach B has a player foul out, He is taking his sweet time replacing her. I instruct the timer to start a 30 second clock. Coach B snaps, "It's 60 seconds." My partner and I inform him otherwise. He ultimately gets a replacement in with about a second to spare.

You both were wrong. It's 20 second replacement time, with horn at 15 seconds.

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Just out of curiosity, do you guys who do a lot of MS stuff where many of the gyms don't have coaching boxes actually enforce the coaching box rule? Meaning do you let them roam and if you do and end up teching them, do you make them sit? The MS stuff that I do there is never a box, but we do let them roam wherever they want as long as they are coaching and not badgering us...I have put them on the bench before if I tech them and decide that they are not going to shut up, but it is tough to explain to a coach that they have "lost the box" if there was no box to begin with just an imagined allowance...just curious how you guys handle it...

I haven't officiated any JH/MS this year yet (youth & 1st year of HS). I don't recall hearing of any of officials in the MS games having any issues.

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

You both were wrong. It's 20 second replacement time, with horn at 15 seconds.

Please re-read 2nd to the last line of my post.