ms game... college atmospher

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I was ready to call the block on the one.. and was anticipating it.. but right at the end the offensive player lifted his elbow and HE initiated contact by doing so. I may have been wrong, but in my eyes even thought the defender wasn't completely set, since the offensive player reached out with his elbow to initiate contact, I called the PC.

If the player had LGP, why would he have to be set?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I was ready to call the block on the one.. and was anticipating it.. but right at the end the offensive player lifted his elbow and HE initiated contact by doing so. I may have been wrong, but in my eyes even thought the defender wasn't completely set, since the offensive player reached out with his elbow to initiate contact, I called the PC.

What JR said.

Forget the whole "set" business. Did the defender establish and maintain LGP or not?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I said I was sorry! Sheesh! I figure there will be a little something extra in my paycheck.....that's how it works right? Extra time, extra pay! (sarc)

I must be strange, but most times when we go to overtime, I'm OK with the extra 4 minutes. Usually the game is pretty good and the teams are, well, even.

Now, when I'm waiting to work the varsity game, the JV game better not go overtime! Start time is 7:30, dammit!

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

What JR said.

Forget the whole "set" business. Did the defender establish and maintain LGP or not?

LGP...

Legal guarding pos..

He was sliding over to establish it.. but was still moving although to his side.. he was not initiating contact but was trying to slide in front of the offensive player to get the call.

Again if it wasn't for the elbow I probly would have called the block...

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

LGP...

Legal guarding pos..

He was sliding over to establish it.. but was still moving although to his side.. he was not initiating contact but was trying to slide in front of the offensive player to get the call.

Again if it wasn't for the elbow I probly would have called the block...

PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP

RULE 4 SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP

RULE 4 SECTION 23 GUARDING
ART. 1 . . . Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

ART. 2 . . . To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
ART. 3 . . . After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne, provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

Thats what I said.. he was not set.. he was sliding over.. hence both feet were not on the floor. He had not yet initially obtained the pos.

..... but.... the contact was initiated by the OFFESIVE PLAYER lifting his elbow into the chest of the defensive player. 2 inches higher it would have been the def players throat.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

I the case of a layup, I agree.

One place where foot movements are significant is post play. If the post player gets the entry pass with his back to the basket, his foot movement, as part of his move to the basket, get my consideration when deciding if he was in the act or not when he gets fouled.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Thats what I said.. he was not set.. he was sliding over.. hence both feet were not on the floor. He had not yet initially obtained the pos.

Assuming you were 'refereeing the defense', try to look back on this episode and see if the defender stood facing the ballhandler at any time during the play.
He has therefore OBTAINED LGP and earned the privilege to MAINTAIN LGP by moving as the rules allow. He does not need to emulate a statue with his feet nailed to the floor once he established LGP. If he had jumped in the air within his vertical space and gets plowed by the ballhandler do you have a block cause 'he was not set'? What if he leans backward to lessen the imminent contact? So long as be beats the offense to the spot and is not moving toward the offensive player, contact sufficient to disadvantage the defender warrants a PC call.
Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events and how to call it properly

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Assuming you were 'refereeing the defense', try to look back on this episode and see if the defender stood facing the ballhandler at any time during the play.
He has therefore OBTAINED LGP and earned the privilege to MAINTAIN LGP by moving as the rules allow. He does not need to emulate a statue with his feet nailed to the floor once he established LGP. If he had jumped in the air within his vertical space and gets plowed by the ballhandler do you have a block cause 'he was not set'? What is he leans backward to lessen the imminent contact? So long as be beats the offense to the spot and is not moving toward the offensive player, contact sufficient to disadvantage the defender warrants a PC call.
Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events.

Not trying to be defensive. Trying to explain what I saw.

Def was initially facing another player. He turned and slid over to try to establish LGP. He IMO had not done so yet. Yes he was facing the ball handler, but he slid over in front of an already moving ball handler and had not set LGP. That why I was going to call a block.

That however became moot when the offensive player used his elbow to clear said def player out of his way. 4-25-7

[fullor30]

"PLEEEZE familiarize yourself with the concepts set forth in this rule. I am thoroughly disgusted at officials who can't recognize the difference between OBTAINING and MAINTAINING LGP"


"Stop being so defensive and try to enlarge your awareness of this chain of events".

Coach................ a little crisp today? He's a relatively new official who comes here for improvement and to learn something. Try offering your solutions sans the editorial comment.

[chartrusepengui]

If defender had established LGP and was moving to maintain LGP and offensive player initiated contact then PC whether or not feet are set or is even facing O player - but if defender had not established LGP then it has to be a block even if you think the raising of the elbow initiated the contact because defender was not legally in position. In other words if the defender had not been there no contact would have been made - contact occurred because he arrived late.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.
Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

Wow, I never heard this explained in this manner. Very is to relate, explain and to teach it this way. Thanks.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

If defender had established LGP and was moving to maintain LGP and offensive player initiated contact then PC whether or not feet are set or is even facing O player - but if defender had not established LGP then it has to be a block even if you think the raising of the elbow initiated the contact because defender was not legally in position. In other words if the defender had not been there no contact would have been made - contact occurred because he arrived late.

I don't believe this is true. What if A1 is dribbling and B1 is running alongside, no LGP...A1 throws a forearm shiver off to the side and knocks B1 into the second row...are you saying that since B1 never established LGP that you are calling a block? Seems to be the same situation in OP, A1 initiated the contact with the elbow, LGP or not I have a PC foul...

[chartrusepengui]

What if A1 is dribbling and B1 is running alongside, no LGP...A1 throws a forearm shiver off to the side and knocks B1 into the second row...are you saying that since B1 never established LGP that you are calling a block? Seems to be the same situation in OP, A1 initiated the contact with the elbow, LGP or not I have a PC foul...

You're right - I wasn't visualizing it that way. I stand corrected - thanks

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's easier imo if you just relate the end of a dribble to the start of a try. How do you end a dribble? By grabbing the ball. How do you start a try? By grabbing the ball. Soooooo, once the player "gathers" the ball, his/her try has started.

Foot movements are only really relevant when it comes to determining whether a player traveled during the try.

Excellent post........