Huge Gym, Spot inbound play

[mick]

Originally Posted by PYRef

This hasn't been specifically addressed by our board that I know of but I usually always just point to a spot before I give the ball to the player. That being said, even if I don't, and she takes off running the baseline, I'm probably calling the violation. The players should know it's a spot throw-in. The only time I usually say something to a player is in a sitch like after a TO after a made basket. When I administer the throw-in, I remind them they can run the baseline.

Me 2.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

J
I ask because if I didn't give a verbal or a visual signal (I usually give both) and the girl starts to run, I'm blowing the whistle and calling her back and readministering. We are required to give a verbal and visual signal for spot throw-ins when the clock is stopped (which I think is all the time for a spot throw-in). Again FED mechanics.

Lah me.......

The visual signal for a spot throw-in simply tells everybody where the throw-in is supposed to be. Period. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you actually administer the throw-in.

Btw, what do you do if you give the visual signal and the team doesn't provide a thrower? Count to 5-seconds and then re-administer that too? If the thrower steps in-bounds with the ball after you gave the visual signal, is that a do-over too?

You're over-thinking the hell outa this play, Joe.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Lah me.......

The visual signal for a spot throw-in simply tells everybody where the throw-in is supposed to be. Period. End of story. It has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when you actually administer the throw-in.

Btw, what do you do if you give the visual signal and the team doesn't provide a thrower? Count to 5-seconds and then re-administer that too? If the thrower steps in-bounds with the ball after you gave the visual signal, is that a do-over too?

You're over-thinking the hell outa this play, Joe.

By the official's manual, I am required to give a verbal and visual signal for a spot throw-in, and I am only speaking about the endline (since we are talking about running). If the thrower is available and I forget to do this and she starts to run, then I am going to whistle her back immediately and "do over" correctly, because I screwed up.

If the thrower is not available, I am signaling spot, placing the ball on the floor and starting my count. If he/she runs, then it will be a violation.

This is the reason why my partners and I communicate how and where the ball will be put back into play on the endline, after the timeout (spot or run). Again, I speak for myself and the crew i will be working with for any game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

By the official's manual, I am required to give a verbal and visual signal for a spot throw-in, and I am only speaking about the endline (since we are talking about running). If the thrower is available and I forget to do this and she starts to run, then I am going to whistle her back immediately and "do over" correctly, because I screwed up.

Signal #7 is used to denote where the spot is going to be after you blow your whistle for anything at any time during the game. You're simply telling everybody where the throw-in is. That signal is supposed to be used for any boundary line, not just an end line. If a player runs up the sideline after you've designated a spot, is that a do-over too?

If you do what you're recommending, you're screwing up even worse. You're screwing the other team by not calling a very obvious violation. Your interpretation is wrong.

Might be wise to go to your local rules interpreter on this one,folks, before you even think about following that advice.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

By the official's manual, I am required to give a verbal and visual signal for a spot throw-in, and I am only speaking about the endline (since we are talking about running). If the thrower is available and I forget to do this and she starts to run, then I am going to whistle her back immediately and "do over" correctly, because I screwed up.

If the thrower is not available, I am signaling spot, placing the ball on the floor and starting my count. If he/she runs, then it will be a violation.

This is the reason why my partners and I communicate how and where the ball will be put back into play on the endline, after the timeout (spot or run). Again, I speak for myself and the crew i will be working with for any game.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

By the official's manual, I am required to give a verbal and visual signal for a spot throw-in, and I am only speaking about the endline (since we are talking about running). If the thrower is available and I forget to do this and she starts to run, then I am going to whistle her back immediately and "do over" correctly, because I screwed up.

Again, I was very specific about when, where and why I would do the "do over".

If I give a verbal or even if I give only a visual spot on the sideline and that person wants to run up and down the sideline than I am violating that person. Shoot, if I give ONLY a visual on the endline in my above scenario, i am violating that person. If I don't give ANYTHING, when I am required to, then I will do what I said I would. Again, I would recommend everyone do as they feel what is right. Then again, this doesn't happen much, if ever, in my games. I have the same mechanic on the endline for every throw-in when the clock is stopped, eye-to-eye contact with each partner, signal/say spot or run, whistle, hand ball (if we're staying) bounce ball (if we're going).

[mbyron]

Joe, I see two issues here: one concerns whether I said "spot," and the other concerns the violation.

My partner assures me that I did say "spot." The player complained that I didn't. I don't recall, although I will add that I routinely do say it.

So assume that I didn't. In that case, I failed to follow the prescribed mechanics. Fair enough.

My failing to follow prescribed mechanics does not, however, excuse the violation. Players are expected to know the rules (ha). The purpose of our mechanic in this case is to help the players, not to grant or withhold a permission (to run the baseline). Ultimately, the responsibility for knowing when they can run the baseline lies with them.

I can understand giving the girl a break because I made a mistake. That thought occurred to me at the time. But I decided, ultimately, that since she's responsible for knowing the rule, I would enforce the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Again, I was very specific about when, where and why I would do the "do over".

Are you aware that it was stated in the NFHS officials manual this year that there are no "do-overs?"

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I give a verbal or even if I give only a visual spot on the sideline and that person wants to run up and down the sideline than I am violating that person. Shoot, if I give ONLY a visual on the endline in my above scenario, i am violating that person.

That seems rather harsh. Could you just give the ball to the other team and leave the poor kid alone?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Are you aware that it was stated in the NFHS officials manual this year that there are no "do-overs?"

Okay, lets look at this situation I am referring to in the opposite. If I tell the thrower after a time out that he can run the endline, when everyone in the gym but me knows different, and he/she runs, are you going to whistle a violation?

In regards to your no "do overs", I figure if they wanted us to whistle back the fumbled ball of the free-thrower, that's sort of "do over". I've also given the wrong information after giving the ball to the free thrower and asked for the ball back to give the correct information, that's a "do over" for me.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Joe, I see two issues here: one concerns whether I said "spot," and the other concerns the violation.

My partner assures me that I did say "spot." The player complained that I didn't. I don't recall, although I will add that I routinely do say it.

So assume that I didn't. In that case, I failed to follow the prescribed mechanics. Fair enough.

My failing to follow prescribed mechanics does not, however, excuse the violation. Players are expected to know the rules (ha). The purpose of our mechanic in this case is to help the players, not to grant or withhold a permission (to run the baseline). Ultimately, the responsibility for knowing when they can run the baseline lies with them.

I can understand giving the girl a break because I made a mistake. That thought occurred to me at the time. But I decided, ultimately, that since she's responsible for knowing the rule, I would enforce the violation.

MB, I didn't say what you did was right or wrong, and I'm 99.9% sure I would've done the exact same thing. I was just throwing out the other stuff for discussion in hopes that the new official gets in practice of giving a spot or run, either verbally or visually.

[Nevadaref]

Ok, good luck with your way then.

BTW could you please show me in the officials manual where it states to "verbally" tell the thrower to remain at the spot or that he can run?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, good luck with your way then.

BTW could you please show me in the officials manual where it states to "verbally" tell the thrower to remain at the spot or that he can run?

3.2.C.5 (Putting the Ball in Play, Endline Page 53 of the NFHS Officials Manual.

When the clock is stopped, use the proper verbal and visual signal to indicate whether a spot throw in or running the end line privileges are in effect.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I give a verbal or even if I give only a visual spot on the sideline and that person wants to run up and down the sideline than I am violating that person.

Are you saying that if you give a verbal AND a visual on a sideline throw-in though, you are NOT going to call a violation if a thrower runs up the sideline? Same as what you would do on the endline?

Signal #7 for a designated spot and the verbal for it are the same on ANY boundary line.

You are completely wrong on this, Joe.

Btw, what signal do you use to designate the starting spot for an unrestricted endline throw-in?

[bob jenkins]

Joe --

It's also our "job" to be sure each team has 5 players before we administer the throw-in, and to be sure the proper players are in the lower blocks before administering a FT, etc. Yet we wouldn't (I assume) have a "do-over" if a team violated one of these rules.

The "spot" mechanic / rule is no different. You *should* do it; failure to do so doesn't absolve the team from the responsibility to know. The player could always ask if you didn't give the instruction.

Note that this is different from giving the "wrong" instruction -- telling a player s/he can run when it's supposed to be a spot throw-in. In this instance, I think you can re-set.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1. Are you saying that if you give a verbal AND a visual on a sideline throw-in though, you are NOT going to call a violation if a thrower runs up the sideline? Same as what you would do on the endline?

2. Signal #7 for a designated spot and the verbal for it are the same on ANY boundary line.

3. You are completely wrong on this, Joe.

4. Btw, what signal do you use to designate the starting spot for an unrestricted endline throw-in?

#1. I am NOT saying that. I am saying the opposite, I am calling the violation. In addition, IF I ONLY GIVE A VISUAL ON ANY THROW-IN, AND THAT PERSON VIOLATES I AM CALLING A VIOLATION.

#2. Got that.

#3. Won't be the first or last time.

#4. Is that a trick question?