Question on inbound play

[Quahogboy]

Hey all, this is my first post. I enjoy the site and have referred to it a few times the past couple of years.

I had a situation come up with my intramural girls team this morning that I need an opinion. My girls had just turned over the ball on the offensive end and turned to set up defense on our end. The other team was also going upcourt. The ref got the ball, tossed it to A1 out of bounds under the basket and then turned to jog up the court. A1 caught the ball, then as she was getting ready to throw it in to A2, dropped the ball which rolled off her leg then foot then rolled in bounds. A1 then crossed completely over the endline inbounds with both feet, picked up the ball, and threw it to A2 with both feet completely in bounds. I then called to the ref that she was inbounds and threw the ball to A2. The next dead ball he came to tell me that he didn't see the play and therefore couldn't make a call. I mentioned that he should have been watching the play and at the least should have been counting 5 seconds for the inbound but that I understood he missed it and to forget about it.

He told the other ref at the end of the quarter who then came up to explain to me that I was incorrect and that A1 was allowed to touch the line with her foot on the throw in. I kept trying to explain that A1 lost the ball, crossed completely inbounds and then threw the ball to her teammate while inbounds. All he told me was that had they seen it, they would have made A1 get back out of bounds to redo it. I think that if they had seen it that it would be a violation since A1 was the first person to touch the ball inbounds and she also crossed over the endline. On top of this, since she had a spot, she shouldn't have been able to move from there anyway. Can someone explain this better for me so I know what to say in the future? It actually happened to us later in the game where my player slapped the ball to initiate the play on the throw in and it slipped and rolled inbounds. She didn't chase it but the opposing side got it and ran the other way with it.

Thanks in advance.
Chris

[K-Bach]

Hi coach,

Without referencing any books, I believe you're describing a fumble by A1. In that case, the official will blow the play dead and re-administer the throw-in.

If she had stepped on to the court to complete the throw, there would have been a violation. Since she did not step in until the ball was fumbled, she did not commit a violation, until she actually threw the ball while still inbounds.

Welcome to the forum.

[tjones1]

For NFHS the references are in 9-2.

9-2-2
9-2-4
9-2-6

[Nevadaref]

Chris,
You are correct that the official should have been observing the thrower as well as counting five seconds. Additionally, you are probably correct about the rule. As far as I know in the NFHS rules if the player making the throw-in fumbles the ball away, there is no ruling that tells the official to readminister it.
There is such a ruling for a FT shooter, so the argument could be made to use the same philosophy.
FREE-THROWER LOSES BALL
9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

Now in the NCAA rule book there is such direction.
7-6-5

A.R. 163.

A1, on a throw-in from a designated spot, fumbles. A1 leaves the designated spot to retrieve the fumble. Is this a violation? RULING: No. Since there was a fumble, the official shall blow his/her whistle, which causes the ball to become dead, and then shall re-administer the throw-in.

Strangely, on page 20 of the November 2006 issue of Referee Magazine the following Caseplay appears:
Fumbled Ball
Play: A1 has the ball at his or her disposal for (a) a designated-spot throw-in, or (b) a free-throw attempt, but A1 fumbles the ball, and it bounces serveral feet away such that A1 would have to leave the (a) designated-spot, or (b) free-throw semicircle in order to retrieve the ball. Shall a violation be called on A1 if he or she tries to retrieve the ball?
Ruling: When A1 loses possession of the ball in a manner such as presented in either scenario (a) or (b), the official shall immediately blow the whistle, which will cause the ball to become dead. The official should remind the player to use a little more caution next time (using a bit of humor in that scenario is acceptable), and shall again put the ball at the disposal of the player and begin a new throw-in or free-throw count, respectively (NFHS 7-6-2, 9-1-1, 9.1.1: NCAA 7-6-5 A.R. 18, 9-1-2a A.R. 1).

Until I see something in writing stating otherwise from the Federation, I don't agree that the RM caseplay is correct for NFHS rules, nor do I agree with it philosophically. Perhaps the NFHS issued an interpretation sometime in the past stating to do this. I don't know, but probably JR, Bob Jenkins, MTD, or someone else on this forum could provide that information.

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Chris,
You are correct that the official should have been observing the thrower as well as counting five seconds. Additionally, you are probably correct about the rule. As far as I know in the NFHS rules if the player making the throw-in fumbles the ball away, there is no ruling that tells the official to readminister it.

What about 9-2-2.

It states: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

So are you saying a fumble is a direct pass? I'm a little confused. Set me straight...

[Nevadaref]

If thrower A1 fakes an inbounds pass, but in doing so the ball slips from his grasp and flies inbounds where B1 catches it and scores a basket, would you cancel the goal and readminister the throw-in stating that it was not a direct pass inbounds?


PS You know what the penalty for that call is right?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Quahogboy

The ref got the ball, tossed it to A1 out of bounds under the basket and then turned to jog up the court.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Chris,
You are correct that the official should have been observing the thrower as well as counting five seconds.

Yes, in addition, he shouldn't have tossed the ball to the player. He should have handed it to the player.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjones1

Yes, in addition, he shouldn't have tossed the ball to the player. He should have handed it to the player.

It is recommended in the officials manual that the ball be handed to the thrower on the end line and bounced on the sideline, but it is not mandatory.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Quahogboy

On top of this, since she had a spot, she shouldn't have been able to move from there anyway.

Something about your wording sounds like you might believe the feet have to remain planted during a spot throw-in. A "spot" throw-in only requires that the thrower keep one foot within a 3 foot wide area and that foot does not have to be on the floor - just within the plane of that 3 foot window - so this does give some latitude for movement; they just cannot take off and "run the baseline"... in all cases, the thrower can back up away from the court as far they wish.

[Quahogboy]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

Something about your wording sounds like you might believe the feet have to remain planted during a spot throw-in. A "spot" throw-in only requires that the thrower keep one foot within a 3 foot wide area and that foot does not have to be on the floor - just within the plane of that 3 foot window - so this does give some latitude for movement; they just cannot take off and "run the baseline"... in all cases, the thrower can back up away from the court as far they wish.

Yeah I see your point but that doesn't mean she has 3 foot inbounds does it? I guess that part of my question may be a stretch.

I also agree with what someone else said when there is a fumble. I see that all the time but typically the ref blows the whistle, stops play, gives the ball back and the throw in takes place. The ref was not paying attention and I felt missed at least one or two violations that should have been a turnover to us. I just wanted to make sure I was thinking correctly because both refs kept trying to convince me that there would have been no violation in the scenario I described to you. Would I have changed the call? No. But I would have at least gotten them to remember "Oh yeah, I need to pay attention on the inbounds plays".