Lead Administers FT while Trail is substituting

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Where's OS/JMO when you need him/her?

Posting under the Nom de Net of Dan_ref.....

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

sigh... I was really hoping to see this thread take off... and then you had to jump in with an approved ruling instead of wild speculation and personal opinion...

I don't actually HAVE the approved ruling. I merely SEEM to remember it. Speculate away.

[ronny mulkey]

We had our share of this very play a few years back. Now, we pre-game this scenario so hard in our association that some of my partners jokingly go into the lane and take the ball away from the adminstering official. Regardless, it does make the point that one of us is over at the table tring to get a sub in.

When I'm with partners that are more serious, I make sure they know that it is 5 AND I never turn my back on them.

But, if you do put the ball in play then you have to live with the consequencies - play on.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

I was watching a JV game (2 man crew) this past weekend and saw an unusual situation. I am wondering if the refs handled it correctly (NFHS).

About a minute left in the game A40-B39, both teams are in the bonus. A1 is bringing the ball up court and B1 fouls A1. The official is reporting the foul at the table and the other official is getting everything ready to shoot the one and one. This is B1's 5th foul and the table notifies the calling official. The table just verbally notifies the official, who turns and signals "5" to his partner. B1 is standing by the HC of B. The official notifies the HC that a sub is needed and notfies B1 since he is standing right there. I see a signal from the ref to start the 20 second clock. Meanwhile, everyone has lined up on the foul line and the other ref has bounced the ball to A1 to shoot the 1+1. B has 3 players along the lane while A has 2. The foul shot misses and A3 gets the rebound. The ref at the table realizes the game has started up and and sees team A in control of the ball. At this point the ref at the table blows the ball dead. The clock did not start because of the substitution that was in progress. B6 was then substituted for B1. There was no time correction. The game proceeded at this point with team A inbounding the ball.

The lead ref missed the 5 sign from the partner, did not wait until partner was in position and put the ball into play. In NFHS, I don't think any of the play could be canceled and done over, so I think they got it right - at least they did not complicate an already messy situation.

Comments?

Yep, they handled it correctly. The DQ'd player was unintentionally allowed to remain in the game for a brief time. The game picks up at the POI after the stoppage to replace him. See 2-11-11 Note 2 for a very similar situation.

HEY MTD, this one's for you!
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

[satellite_6]

Thanks for all the feedback, interpretations, and case book scenarios. Hopefully pre-game and good partnering keep me out of the situation entirely, but it's good to gain clarification.

Play on!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, they handled it correctly. The DQ'd player was unintentionally allowed to remain in the game for a brief time. The game picks up at the POI after the stoppage to replace him. See 2-11-11 Note 2 for a very similar situation.

HEY MTD, this one's for you!
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Bob Jenkins (primarily to you) and Nevada:

I went back and reread my posts in this thread and cannot for the love of Bob (not Jenkins, personal joke among my two sons and myself) I cannot understand how I disagreed with Bob. I think I meant to agree with Bob that the NCAA rationale is wrong and that the NFHS Ruling is correct. Because Bob and Nevada know my feelings about do overs, there shouldn't be any except for free throw violations. Bob, you are right the NCAA ruling is horse manure and the NFHS is the right one. My only excuse is that my OP post was right after lunch and at my advanced age I should have waited until after I had taken my after lunch nap before making my post.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob Jenkins (primarily to you) and Nevada:

I went back and reread my posts in this thread and cannot for the love of Bob (not Jenkins, personal joke among my two sons and myself) I cannot understand how I disagreed with Bob. I think I meant to agree with Bob that the NCAA rationale is wrong and that the NFHS Ruling is correct. Because Bob and Nevada know my feelings about do overs, there shouldn't be any except for free throw violations. Bob, you are right the NCAA ruling is horse manure and the NFHS is the right one. My only excuse is that my OP post was right after lunch and at my advanced age I should have waited until after I had taken my after lunch nap before making my post.

MTD, Sr.

What NCAA ruling are you referring to? There is no ruling in the NCAA rule book that says the ball is dead in the OP play. So if you know where it is please post it. Otherwise the rule is consistent with the FED.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

What NCAA ruling are you referring to? There is no ruling in the NCAA rule book that says the ball is dead in the OP play. So if you know where it is please post it. Otherwise the rule is consistent with the FED.

Gimlet:

We are not debating the wording of the rules. Yes the NFHS and NCAA rules are the same, what we are saying that the NFHS has a Casebook play that is completely opposite of a NCAA Bulletin. I really don't have the time to go up in the attic and find a copy of it but I am sure that someone else in this group will do my work for me and post it here.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

We are not debating the wording of the rules. Yes the NFHS and NCAA rules are the same, what we are saying that the NFHS has a Casebook play that is completely opposite of a NCAA Bulletin. I really don't have the time to go up in the attic and find a copy of it but I am sure that someone else in this group will do my work for me and post it here.

MTD, Sr.

MTD...you I seem to be butting heads. Really not my intention. However if you find that old bulletin in the archived files in the attic....well, just go ahead and throw it out. This should settle it, right out of the NCAA Case Book

Disqualified Player
A.R. 70. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free
throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is
A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer:
(1) Informs the official that A5 has been disqualified, or
(2) Does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified and A5
attempts the free throws.
RULING: (1) A Team B player shall attempt the free throws for the technical
foul assessed to A5. Play is resumed at the point of interruption and
the substitute for A5 would then attempt the free throws awarded when A5
was fouled in the act of shooting.
(2) Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification, the
result of A5’s free throws (following the free throws awarded to Team B for
the technical foul on A5) shall stand.
(Rule 4-20.4, 8-2.2.c, 2-9.4, 4-53.1.e and 2-12.1)