Lead Administers FT while Trail is substituting

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's what I was going to say. "Do it over" in NCAA; play on in FED.

Bob:

Why wouldn't you do the same in an NFHS game. The rationale is the same, not to mention my partner is going to get chewed out good by at half time for not paying attention to me.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

Why wouldn't you do the same in an NFHS game. The rationale is the same, not to mention my partner is going to get chewed out good by at half time for not paying attention to me.

MTD, Sr.

Because the NCAA rationale is "wrong."

I seem to recall an interp in FED that's different from the interp in NCAA

[ronny mulkey]

We had our share of this very play a few years back. Now, we pre-game this scenario so hard in our association that some of my partners jokingly go into the lane and take the ball away from the adminstering official. Regardless, it does make the point that one of us is over at the table tring to get a sub in.

When I'm with partners that are more serious, I make sure they know that it is 5 AND I never turn my back on them.

But, if you do put the ball in play then you have to live with the consequencies - play on.

[satellite_6]

I don't know how I happened upon this old thread, but it raised a question in my mind. Rule 3.1 says that you cannot play with only 4 players when a substitute is available for a DQ'd player. Once that official notified the coach that his player was DQ'd, he became bench personnel. While this is not a correctable error, haven't we unnecessarily put Team B at a disadvantage by not allowing them their additional rebounder? If I'm team B, I'd rather give team A another opportunity to make their first free throw than give them the ball back for an opportunity of a 2 or 3 point play.

I also find it difficult to take away points if team A made the first free throw, as the sub would have had no impact on that shot.

Before reading this thread, I might have left a free throw on the board for a made situation... but performed a 'do over' for a miss. Is it really the 'official' interpretation that we are to 'play on' in federation rules?



"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation"

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by satellite_6

I don't know how I happened upon this old thread, but it raised a question in my mind. Rule 3.1 says that you cannot play with only 4 players when a substitute is available for a DQ'd player. Once that official notified the coach that his player was DQ'd, he became bench personnel. While this is not a correctable error, haven't we unnecessarily put Team B at a disadvantage by not allowing them their additional rebounder? If I'm team B, I'd rather give team A another opportunity to make their first free throw than give them the ball back for an opportunity of a 2 or 3 point play.

I also find it difficult to take away points if team A made the first free throw, as the sub would have had no impact on that shot.

Before reading this thread, I might have left a free throw on the board for a made situation... but performed a 'do over' for a miss. Is it really the 'official' interpretation that we are to 'play on' in federation rules?



"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation"

It is appropriate to play on, and hopefully the official waiting on the sub is going to blow the play dead prior to a rebound.

There is no rules support for awarding a "do over" for a miss.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

It is appropriate to play on, and hopefully the official waiting on the sub is going to blow the play dead prior to a rebound.

There is no rules support for awarding a "do over" for a miss.

I agree that the FED doesn't have a provision that would allow us to do this play over. The ball was live once it was @ the disposal of thrower. No way to take the point off. If the whistle is blown while the ball is in flight, and the shot misses then you would have to go AP since the ball wouldn't be dead until the try was succesful/unsuccesful. AP might actually be the fairest way out of this mess. However if the shot is made then fix the sub problem and shoot the second.

BTW...Never seen or heard of a approved NCAA ruling that said the ball is dead until the substitution is complete. You know where it is @?

2008 NCAA RULE 6-5 Dead Ball

Art. 1. The ball shall become dead or remain dead when:
a. Any goal is made.
b. It is apparent that the free throw will not be successful on a free throw for
a technical foul or a false double foul or a free throw that is to be followed
by another free throw.
c. A held ball occurs or the ball lodges between the backboard and the ring or
comes to rest on the flange.
RULE 6 / LIVE BALL AND DEAD BALL 111
d. An official blows the whistle.
e. Time expires for a half or extra period.
f. A foul is called.
g. Any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-14) occurs, there is basket
interference or goaltending (Rule 9-16) or there is a free-throw violation
by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).

[satellite_6]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

It is appropriate to play on, and hopefully the official waiting on the sub is going to blow the play dead prior to a rebound.

There is no rules support for awarding a "do over" for a miss.

One more quick question. Where is the rules support for playing on?

We as officials have just allowed a play that put team B at a tremendous disadvantage. In my mind, a play that never happened since team B is required to have 5 players on the court in order to continue. This is our mistake, not team B's.

Without documented support for either action, I'd refer back to the intent of the rules which is to ensure that a player or team is not permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.

If it is documented somewhere, I'd be happy and fine knowing that I am supported in playing on. I just haven't found that yet.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by satellite_6

This is our mistake, not team B's.

You're right, this is an officials' mistake. Unfortunately (or fortunately, from a different point of view), officials' mistakes are not correctable. Therefore, this activity happened and the results have to be accepted.

The "rules support" for playing on is that there is no rules support for correcting or "re-doing" this play. If you can find somewhere in the rules that would allow for canceling a merited free throw when there is no violation, I'd be happy to then agree with you.

Short of that, there's nothing you can do but apologize to the coach you screwed and keep on keepin' on.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by satellite_6

One more quick question. Where is the rules support for playing on?

We as officials have just allowed a play that put team B at a tremendous disadvantage. In my mind, a play that never happened since team B is required to have 5 players on the court in order to continue. This is our mistake, not team B's.

Without documented support for either action, I'd refer back to the intent of the rules which is to ensure that a player or team is not permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule.

If it is documented somewhere, I'd be happy and fine knowing that I am supported in playing on. I just haven't found that yet.

Here's a couple of case book examples in reference to having only 4 players on the court...

10.1.9 Following a charged T/O Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. Four players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts an unsuccessful 3-pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. Ruling A technical foul is charged to the B team for failing to have all players return to the court at approx. the same time.

So we can play with only 4 players when 5 are available. In this case resumption of play was used and penalty given for not coming to the floor or for coming to the floor in a advantageous position.

If for some reason we inbound the ball with 4 on one side without knowing the 5th can come on without penalty as long as they don't enter the court in a advantageous position or in a deceitful manner.

Case Book 10.3.3...A5 goes to the bench and remains there, mistakenly believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only 4 players on the court......A5...sprints directly onto the court and catches up with the play. Ruling: No technical.....A5's return to the court was not deceitful, nor did it provide A5 an unfair POSITIONING advantage on the court.

Neither instance require a "DO OVER." We are looking for either a delay which would require the resumption of play or if the team was being deceitful. If they were then there's a penalty. If their not and they don't gain an advantage then they can just run onto the floor.

These case plays help substantiate the earlier posts that stated you can't wipe basket and do a do over with out it being a correctable error. The case book is clear that when a official errors it isn't correctable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

I was watching a JV game (2 man crew) this past weekend and saw an unusual situation. I am wondering if the refs handled it correctly (NFHS).

About a minute left in the game A40-B39, both teams are in the bonus. A1 is bringing the ball up court and B1 fouls A1. The official is reporting the foul at the table and the other official is getting everything ready to shoot the one and one. This is B1's 5th foul and the table notifies the calling official. The table just verbally notifies the official, who turns and signals "5" to his partner. B1 is standing by the HC of B. The official notifies the HC that a sub is needed and notfies B1 since he is standing right there. I see a signal from the ref to start the 20 second clock. Meanwhile, everyone has lined up on the foul line and the other ref has bounced the ball to A1 to shoot the 1+1. B has 3 players along the lane while A has 2. The foul shot misses and A3 gets the rebound. The ref at the table realizes the game has started up and and sees team A in control of the ball. At this point the ref at the table blows the ball dead. The clock did not start because of the substitution that was in progress. B6 was then substituted for B1. There was no time correction. The game proceeded at this point with team A inbounding the ball.

The lead ref missed the 5 sign from the partner, did not wait until partner was in position and put the ball into play. In NFHS, I don't think any of the play could be canceled and done over, so I think they got it right - at least they did not complicate an already messy situation.

Comments?

Yep, they handled it correctly. The DQ'd player was unintentionally allowed to remain in the game for a brief time. The game picks up at the POI after the stoppage to replace him. See 2-11-11 Note 2 for a very similar situation.

HEY MTD, this one's for you!
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

[satellite_6]

Thanks for all the feedback, interpretations, and case book scenarios. Hopefully pre-game and good partnering keep me out of the situation entirely, but it's good to gain clarification.

Play on!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, they handled it correctly. The DQ'd player was unintentionally allowed to remain in the game for a brief time. The game picks up at the POI after the stoppage to replace him. See 2-11-11 Note 2 for a very similar situation.

HEY MTD, this one's for you!
2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2’s fifth foul. The new trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B’s coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The officials realize the error and huddle to discuss the situation. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B’s head coach shall be notified of B2’s disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable-error situation according to Rule 2-10. (2-8-3, 4-14-1, 6-1-2c, 10-5-1d)

Bob Jenkins (primarily to you) and Nevada:

I went back and reread my posts in this thread and cannot for the love of Bob (not Jenkins, personal joke among my two sons and myself) I cannot understand how I disagreed with Bob. I think I meant to agree with Bob that the NCAA rationale is wrong and that the NFHS Ruling is correct. Because Bob and Nevada know my feelings about do overs, there shouldn't be any except for free throw violations. Bob, you are right the NCAA ruling is horse manure and the NFHS is the right one. My only excuse is that my OP post was right after lunch and at my advanced age I should have waited until after I had taken my after lunch nap before making my post.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob Jenkins (primarily to you) and Nevada:

I went back and reread my posts in this thread and cannot for the love of Bob (not Jenkins, personal joke among my two sons and myself) I cannot understand how I disagreed with Bob. I think I meant to agree with Bob that the NCAA rationale is wrong and that the NFHS Ruling is correct. Because Bob and Nevada know my feelings about do overs, there shouldn't be any except for free throw violations. Bob, you are right the NCAA ruling is horse manure and the NFHS is the right one. My only excuse is that my OP post was right after lunch and at my advanced age I should have waited until after I had taken my after lunch nap before making my post.

MTD, Sr.

What NCAA ruling are you referring to? There is no ruling in the NCAA rule book that says the ball is dead in the OP play. So if you know where it is please post it. Otherwise the rule is consistent with the FED.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

What NCAA ruling are you referring to? There is no ruling in the NCAA rule book that says the ball is dead in the OP play. So if you know where it is please post it. Otherwise the rule is consistent with the FED.

Gimlet:

We are not debating the wording of the rules. Yes the NFHS and NCAA rules are the same, what we are saying that the NFHS has a Casebook play that is completely opposite of a NCAA Bulletin. I really don't have the time to go up in the attic and find a copy of it but I am sure that someone else in this group will do my work for me and post it here.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

We are not debating the wording of the rules. Yes the NFHS and NCAA rules are the same, what we are saying that the NFHS has a Casebook play that is completely opposite of a NCAA Bulletin. I really don't have the time to go up in the attic and find a copy of it but I am sure that someone else in this group will do my work for me and post it here.

MTD, Sr.

MTD...you I seem to be butting heads. Really not my intention. However if you find that old bulletin in the archived files in the attic....well, just go ahead and throw it out. This should settle it, right out of the NCAA Case Book

Disqualified Player
A.R. 70. A5 is fouled during an unsuccessful try for goal. As A5 goes to the free
throw line, A5 is assessed an unsportsmanlike technical foul, which is
A5’s fifth and disqualifying foul. The scorer:
(1) Informs the official that A5 has been disqualified, or
(2) Does not inform the official that A5 has been disqualified and A5
attempts the free throws.
RULING: (1) A Team B player shall attempt the free throws for the technical
foul assessed to A5. Play is resumed at the point of interruption and
the substitute for A5 would then attempt the free throws awarded when A5
was fouled in the act of shooting.
(2) Since A5 and A5’s coach were not notified of the disqualification, the
result of A5’s free throws (following the free throws awarded to Team B for
the technical foul on A5) shall stand.
(Rule 4-20.4, 8-2.2.c, 2-9.4, 4-53.1.e and 2-12.1)