Defender hits dribbler's hand; ball goes OOB; Whatcha got?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'm glad you're too old and ugly to be of interest to my daughter! a living human

I've seen his picture.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

the hand bone's connected to the wrist bone,
the wrist bone's connected to the arm bone,
the arm bone's connected to the elbow bone,
the elbow bone's connected to the upper arm bone,
the upper arm bone's connected to the shoulder bone, ........ etc.

ball off A OOB giver to B

Let me see if I understand you. You are going to award B1 the ball for slapping A1s hand, resulting in the ball going OOBs? So if B1 had only hit the ball and not the hand, then its out on B1? Therefore you do not agree that the "hand" on the ball, is the same as the ball? That being said, you must call a foul each time the player, while shooting, gets their "hand" hit while in contact with the ball... correct?

[Adam]

Personally, I can't imagine seeing this play so well and so clearly that I could tell B1's hand didn't touch the ball.

By rule, it's B's ball. I'm just not good enough to make that call.

[Splute]

Snaqs,
What rule did I miss that makes it B's ball? Still refering to the original Op of B1 hitting A1s hand while in contact with the ball, the ball going OOB, touching nothing else but the floor. Thanks

[Adam]

My rule book is at home (I forgot to put it in my gamebag this morning), but let me ask this:

1. What does the rule actually say with regard to the hand on the ball? I don't believe it says the hand is considered "part of the ball." My memory tells me that such contact is to be considered "incidental."

2. If #1 is correct, then the player who "caused" the ball to go out of bounds is, by definition, the last person to touch the ball before it went there. By rule, the OP should be B's ball.

Again, though, even with my contact lenses in, I don't see well enough to make that call.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Splute

Let me see if I understand you. You are going to award B1 the ball for slapping A1s hand, resulting in the ball going OOBs? So if B1 had only hit the ball and not the hand, then its out on B1? Therefore you do not agree that the "hand" on the ball, is the same as the ball? That being said, you must call a foul each time the player, while shooting, gets their "hand" hit while in contact with the ball... correct?

What you are seeing is the literal wording of the rules vs the real world.

The natural way to read 10-6-2 is to take it as the hand is part of the ball, unfortunately it isn't literally written that way...so officials are in a dilema...call it literally or call it fair.

Which is why you can read some of the responses like I don't see well enough to see only hand on hand, or it's impossible for B1 to just hit the hand and no ball.

So book ref it and give the ball to B or real world it and give it back to A.

[Splute]

Let me see if I can find it online... I thought it specifically mentioned "part of the ball". I was hoping JR or Nevada would post it for us by now.

[chartrusepengui]

even if "the hand is part of the ball" it is also a hand and that hand is attached to an arm as I so elequently stated before. Since it is still a hand and was last to touch the ball before going OOB - I am going to to award the ball to B unless B also hit the wrist/arm. Then I would whistle a foul on B and A would get the ball or FT.

[just another ref]

A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

even if "the hand is part of the ball" it is also a hand and that hand is attached to an arm as I so elequently stated before. Since it is still a hand and was last to touch the ball before going OOB - I am going to to award the ball to B unless B also hit the wrist/arm. Then I would whistle a foul on B and A would get the ball or FT.

Yea, that's been my concept in the past, also. But my supervisor and state rules interpreter specifically told me to call this as B causing the ball to go oob and give it back to A. Always. Everytime. Unless there's a foul. Then it's foul on B and give it to A. YMMV

[inigo montoya]

4-24
Art. 2... It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

10-6
Art. 2... A player shall not contact an opponent with his/her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent's hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to any attempt to play the ball.

If B1's contact with A1's hand (while it is in contact with the ball) is accidental and during a legit shot to play the ball then by rule it is out of bounds on A.

7-2-1 ... The ball is caused to go out of bounds by the last player in bounds to touch it or be touched by it...

However, if B1 contacts A1's hand intentionally to cause the ball to go out of bounds then you have a personal foul, do you not?

[Splute]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What you are seeing is the literal wording of the rules vs the real world.

The natural way to read 10-6-2 is to take it as the hand is part of the ball, unfortunately it isn't literally written that way...so officials are in a dilema...call it literally or call it fair.

Which is why you can read some of the responses like I don't see well enough to see only hand on hand, or it's impossible for B1 to just hit the hand and no ball.

So book ref it and give the ball to B or real world it and give it back to A.

Interesting, my thought process has always been that the contact by B1 caused the ball to go OOB, as if he hit ONLY the ball. Thus I would give it back to A1. Just as I deem contact by B1 on the hand of shooter A1 a legal play and play continues from resulting actions. Any chance there is a Sit on this particular instance?? I will look thru the books tonight. Thanks for the interps.

[chartrusepengui]

Here's a question ...... OP has A dribbling - would anyone change the way they would make the call if A was holding the ball after picking up their dribble?

[inigo montoya]

Based on 4-24-2, there is no distinction. If it's incidental contact, then it's out on A. If it's intentional, the foul by B causes the ball to become dead before the ball goes out of bounds.

[bob jenkins]

Wow! An example of where the literal reading of the rule doesn't match the accepted / intended interpretation. Who would think there would be such a thing?

Baseball has a saying: The rules were written by gentlemen, for gentlemen; not by lawyers, for lawyers.

It applies to basketball, too.