Throwing Clipboard

[JRutledge]

Let me stop you right there. If you do not want to the official to say anything to you, do not say something that can be heard. Now that does not mean that some officials might not worry that much about what you say, but that does not give you the right to have anything come out of your mouth either. And that certainly applies to how you address officials and the antics you display. And yes, even with adult player that does not give you the right to say anything. It might mean you get more leeway, but it does not give you the right to say anything.

Peace

[reddevil19]

So in other words, if an official going down the court and happens to hear a coach say "d*mmit son, you have got to get around that screen" in a conversational tone, face-to-face with the player in a coaching moment, that's something worth stopping the game for? Isn't that a classic case of what you guys like to call "OOO?"

The particular situation I describe above was even more laughable considering that 2 games, 1 broken arm and a lot of pain killers later, the same official didn't even flinch when I dropped an F-bomb (the only time I ever did that in 8 years) on him loud enough for everyone to hear because I was extremely irritated he refused to grant the time-out I was requesting legally, while standing right next to him, having him make eye-contact with me twice, while signalling with a bright red cast on my arm. (Exact words, after player dribbles into opposite corner, picks up dribble, gets called for 5 second count, and then the official asks me if I wanted time and says, "I didn't see you asking for time," were, "How could you NOT. I HAVE THIS GIANT F'ING RED CAST ON MY ARM AND I WAS SIGNALLING [demonstrated signal again] IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE???" I turned around and sat down on my own expecting hear the whistle. Surprisingly, when I sat down, he was still looking at me with a deer/headlights look. His partner was laughing on the other side of the court, asked me if I still wanted timeout and then put the ball back in play.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

So in other words, if you're going down the court and happen to hear a coach say "d*mmit son, you have got to get around that screen" in a conversational tone, face-to-face with the player in a coaching moment, that's something worth stopping the game for? Isn't that a classic case of what you guys like to call "OOO?"

If you read this post and my comments, I did not say I would call anything in particular. I just said you are not able to say whatever you want to without consequence. And if you do not want to be penalized, then watch what you say. It is like rolling the dice. You might just crap out. All officials are not going to view similar language the same way in all situations. And if you do not like it, that is just too bad.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

The particular situation I describe above was even more laughable considering that 2 games, 1 broken arm and a lot of pain killers later, the same official didn't even flinch when I dropped an F-bomb (the only time I ever did that in 8 years) on him loud enough for everyone to hear because I was extremely irritated he refused to grant the time-out I was requesting legally, while standing right next to him, having him make eye-contact with me twice, while signalling with a bright red cast on my arm.

You do not have the right to say anything. And official's focus is on the court, not you as a coach. If you want a timeout, have your player’s call it and you will guarantee that you will get a timeout rather than asking an official to take their attention off the action.

Peace

[reddevil19]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you read this post and my comments, I did not say I would call anything in particular. I just said you are not able to say whatever you want to without consequence. And if you do not want to be penalized, then watch what you say. It is like rolling the dice. You might just crap out. All officials are not going to view similar language the same way in all situations. And if you do not like it, that is just too bad.



You do not have the right to say anything. And official's focus is on the court, not you as a coach. If you want a timeout, have your player’s call it and you will guarantee that you will get a timeout rather than asking an official to take their attention off the action.

Peace

I realized that and changed it to a generic response. You beat me to the reply. My apologies.

I'm not sure I agree with not having the right to talk to my players. I surely don't have the right to do ANYTHING I might please during the game, but there are some things that I don't think as a coach I should have to worry about during a game, and the situation I described about talking to my player is one of them. I agree 100% that the officials should focus on the court. That said, maybe coaches should not be allowed to request TO's?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

I'm not sure I agree with not having the right to talk to my players.

Stop acting like a coach and listen.

I did not say you could not talk to your players. But if you do not want to raise the attention of officials, then watch what you say. Talking to your players does not give you a pass to say and do anything.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

I surely don't have the right to do ANYTHING I might please during the game, but there are some things that I don't think as a coach I should have to worry about during a game, and the situation I described is one of them.

If certain things come out of your mouth you might. I am not telling you what should happen. I am telling you what the reality of the situation is.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

I agree 100% that the officials should focus on the court. That said, maybe coaches should not be allowed to request TO's?

Well it was not officials that wanted this rule, it was coaches. That should tell you how I feel about that rule.

Peace

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

That said, maybe coaches should not be allowed to request TO's?

Not to butt in, but this is one particular rule that I don't like. Not because I have something against coaches being able to call a TO, but because I've had too many times (and another just tonight, that's why I'm writing this) where a coach is trying to get a timeout, but my focus is the other way, in a loud gym, and there's simply not a way to hear him/her.

The coach gets frustrated, I feel bad (not in any sense other than, 'oh, that would have really helped them right there'), and it's just not good for much. Especially when we go to the other end of the court and the other coach gets one right when he wants it.

Sorry, feeling soapbox-ish again tonight.

[reddevil19]

I hear ya. As a coach, I just felt compelled to get the last word in

[reddevil19]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Not to butt in, but this is one particular rule that I don't like. Not because I have something against coaches being able to call a TO, but because I've had too many times (and another just tonight, that's why I'm writing this) where a coach is trying to get a timeout, but my focus is the other way, in a loud gym, and there's simply not a way to hear him/her.

The coach gets frustrated, I feel bad (not in any sense other than, 'oh, that would have really helped them right there'), and it's just not good for much. Especially when we go to the other end of the court and the other coach gets one right when he wants it.

Sorry, feeling soapbox-ish again tonight.

I had a counterpart one game that had that happen to him twice. The third time, he walked over to the table, picked up the mic which was sitting there ready for the Varsity game afterwards, and said "Timeout please" over the PA. I laughed so hard I had to go out to the mens room while my player shot the 6 FT's for the 3 T's the coach and his assistant racked up.

[mbyron]

Regarding coaches swearing at their players (not officials) in and around the bench area:

1. What counts as profanity varies in different parts of the country. To pick one example already mentioned in this thread: "dammit" or even "god dammit" are not widely regarded as obscene around here, but they are in many parts of the country.

2. I seem to recall that NFHS had a POE or interp on enforcing 10-4-1c even in the bench area (not addressed to officials).

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Give me an example.

Fighting? Profanity????

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! )

I've even saw during a JC game where I do PA announcing last year, a ref stop to badger a coach who dropped an F-bomb on his adult players, but only loud enough to be heard within 5 feet. The ref started an argument with the coach while the ball was in play, at a JC game!

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

Let me explain something to you....coach are suppose to be the leaders of the team as well as showing an example for their kids. If a couch hollars and screams at the officials, disrespects the officials as well as curses on the court either at the officials or not, that kind of stuff pushes of on the kids and they will have similiar attitudes. I am sure most school have a standard of conduct code and I am sure that teachers in class would not curse or throw things around in the classroom....just my 2 cents.

[tnsteele95]

Wow, this thread has me kind of shocked. I'm a new ref, however, I couldn't disagree more with anyone who thinks this doesn't deserve a T. Unless we're talking grown men here, basketball is played by kids. A lot of those kids don't have proper role models as it is. If you don't teach sportsmanlike conduct then how will the kids learn it? Therefore, when a coach is so angry over a GAME of basketball that he needs to throw objects, curse, or use any other unsportsmen like activity in front of a bunch of kids, it's definitely time for a T. And in our league, any coach that does this would be facing a dismissal hearing as a coach.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by tnsteele95

Wow, this thread has me kind of shocked. I'm a new ref, however, I couldn't disagree more with anyone who thinks this doesn't deserve a T. Unless we're talking grown men here, basketball is played by kids. A lot of those kids don't have proper role models as it is. If you don't teach sportsmanlike conduct then how will the kids learn it? Therefore, when a coach is so angry over a GAME of basketball that he needs to throw objects, curse, or use any other unsportsmen like activity in front of a bunch of kids, it's definitely time for a T. And in our league, any coach that does this would be facing a dismissal hearing as a coach.

I'm going to make the assumption that you are refereeing in a recreational league with very young children, and you would be absolutely correct. There's no place for that type of behavior in that environment.

Chances are, I'm not going to T a HS or College coach for slamming a clipboard because he/she is angry at his players, which is the case in the OP. And in my opinion, if I was an assignor and I got complaints to the fact that my officials were T'ing up coaches for yelling or demonstrating their anger towards their players by slamming a clipboard, chances are I would only book you to games of low intensity, like a recreational or middle school game. We have to remember that coaching at a certain level is a job and a livelihood for most coaches. We shouldn't be telling them how to coach and motivate, just as much as they shouldn't be telling us how to referee. JMO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by reddevil19

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.

I don't know about other states, but Colorado has explicitly followed the NFHS guideline, and isntructed the officials to call all profanity, even if directed at players. So yes, coaches do need to watch what they say to their players.

That said, at most, "dammit" might earn a quick chat depending on how loud it was uttered.

Do I think we have

Originally Posted by reddevil19

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! )

Yeah, they missed that one. First of all, sounds like I would have let it go. However, if you'd been making a scene all game….

Also, there's a casebook play that states explicitly that the official should hold his whistle on this until after the layup; don't penalize the other team.

Originally Posted by reddevil19

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

While we may or may not agree with you, the NFHS and at least my state don't. I may think I have better things to do than nag the players about tucking their shirts in, too, but the rules committee tells me otherwise.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Fighting?

Okay, you got me. If a punch is thrown, it's pretty much an automatic flagrant. We're talking about unsporting Ts here, though.

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Profanity????

not automatic.