Communication to get call straight

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I don't know how to do that face and clapping hands thing, if I did it would be very appropriate for this post. You and Dan are saying it best, judgement calls is one thing; you won't hear a peep from me unless you ask for help or give me the confused look like you need help... Kicking a rule, that's a different beast and it shouldn't happen. And not to overstate the obvious, but the worse time to kick a rule would be the end of the game.

The only grey area here is that how do you know if your partner made an error in judgement or if he/she actually kicked a rule? The BC example for instance, if it is clear to you that it wasn't BC, how do you know if they just saw something different or if they truly don't know the rule? I am with you 100%, I just think this is causing a little confusion....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kbilla

The only grey area here is that how do you know if your partner made an error in judgement or if he/she actually kicked a rule? The BC example for instance, if it is clear to you that it wasn't BC, how do you know if they just saw something different or if they truly don't know the rule? I am with you 100%, I just think this is causing a little confusion....

A couple of things need to be mentioned. This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it. Then I am going to approach them and tell them, yu could not have what you just called. For one on a GT call you must touch the ball. I can clearly tell them the defender did not touch the ball or in the case of a BC violation, how the ball got to the backcourt. This is not just a judgment issue, this is someone is calling something they are not in position to see or they could not rule on such a thing.

Once again, you can get caught up in the minutia of the rules, but then when you have no games because you allowed such an obvious mistake to go off. And that is why there are provisions for the Referee to take care of situations that are not clearly labeled in the rulebook. I would rather be slightly off with the rules than sitting completely at home because I did not want to correct an obvious mistake. Just look to the college ranks, they do not just get the person that made the mistake, they fine or suspend all officials at the scene of the crime. And at the College level the Referee holds a lot of reverence in practice. There is a reason you always see the top officials as the Referee. Where I live similar attitudes are put in place at the HS level (when it is assigned).

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it.

In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.

First of all the Lead should not be making these kinds of calls. I made one of these calls during a college game about 3 years ago as a reaction to a quick play and my partner's disagreed with the call. So leave this to the Trail and Center officials. The Lead official does not have the perspective if they are doing their job to make this call properly. It is not about the mechanics book, it is about angles and being in position.

Secondly, if you cannot keep up with kids that are 17 year old and you are beat that badly, it is time to find some other level to work. About 2 weeks before the season I had a ruptured hamstring that I rehabbed for two weeks. When I came back for my first basketball, I could keep up adequately with 17 year olds. And I am in great shape and I hustle often (which is why I got hurt in the first place). Even if a player makes a steal and you get beat badly, you should not be so focused on the ball from the Lead position.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In the OP, I would have to say that it was his call. We have a steal near the division line, and two greyhounds took off on a two-on-none break. What we actually had for a few seconds, if you will, was a trail and a trail-er. When partner made the call, he was probably at the halfway point of the lane. I was somewhere approaching the division line. Read all the mechanics manuals you want, it still won't help you keep up with 17 year olds.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all the Lead should not be making these kinds of calls. I made one of these calls during a college game about 3 years ago as a reaction to a quick play and my partner's disagreed with the call. So leave this to the Trail and Center officials. The Lead official does not have the perspective if they are doing their job to make this call properly. It is not about the mechanics book, it is about angles and being in position.

Secondly, if you cannot keep up with kids that are 17 year old and you are beat that badly, it is time to find some other level to work. About 2 weeks before the season I had a ruptured hamstring that I rehabbed for two weeks. When I came back for my first basketball, I could keep up adequately with 17 year olds. And I am in great shape and I hustle often (which is why I got hurt in the first place). Even if a player makes a steal and you get beat badly, you should not be so focused on the ball from the Lead position.

Peace

Thought this thread was over, didn't see the last couple of posts until now.
You are going to have to draw me a picture here. This is a two whistle game.
Ball is knocked into the backcourt and B1 and B2 race each other to pick it up, which B1 did, probably about the top of the key. They proceeded to finish a two on none break, then A1 came in and slapped the board after the fact. So, if we would have had two of you calling this game, spell it out for me where you would have been positioned, before and after the steal.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A couple of things need to be mentioned. This is not the Lead's call (BC or GT call). It is that simple either way you slice it. Then I am going to approach them and tell them, yu could not have what you just called. For one on a GT call you must touch the ball. I can clearly tell them the defender did not touch the ball or in the case of a BC violation, how the ball got to the backcourt. This is not just a judgment issue, this is someone is calling something they are not in position to see or they could not rule on such a thing.

Once again, you can get caught up in the minutia of the rules, but then when you have no games because you allowed such an obvious mistake to go off. And that is why there are provisions for the Referee to take care of situations that are not clearly labeled in the rulebook. I would rather be slightly off with the rules than sitting completely at home because I did not want to correct an obvious mistake. Just look to the college ranks, they do not just get the person that made the mistake, they fine or suspend all officials at the scene of the crime. And at the College level the Referee holds a lot of reverence in practice. There is a reason you always see the top officials as the Referee. Where I live similar attitudes are put in place at the HS level (when it is assigned).

Peace

It's different everywhere, the importance put on the referee. It's like the crew chief in college baseball -- I am usually assigned that way and all it means at the small college level is that I have to fill out any paperwork afterwards.

Things could change now that a designated tosser can be assigned. I hate tossing a jump ball, personally, so I'll be trying to get out of that more this season, even when it's my turn to be the R. Thank goodness the AP arrow was put in place right before I started officiating.