Communication to get call straight

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Does not apply. The proper ruling is quite clearly specified in the rules.

2-5-3 is not going to apply either. This isn't about whether or not a goal scores. The matter of goaltending or BI is about an awarded basket. The referee has no more jurisdiction to reverse an umpires GT call than he does to reverse a traveling call or foul call. Even based on the misapplication of a rule.

The best that can be done is to present the calling official with the proper information and hope he/she will make the proper ruling.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Hartsy

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

I completely understand what you're saying - however, I do think there's something to this conversation. This isn't a case where one says he touched the ball in the cylinder and one says he didn't. Or one says he moved his pivot foot and one says he didn't.

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

Someone is going to have to make that final call, and I guess the question is does the referee have additional authority to make the final decision there?

None of these examples exactly mirror what happened, so I guess that's part of the problem.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This is a case where both officials agree exactly on what happened, and one is trying to enforce a rule that simply doesn't apply. To me, it's much more similar to both officials getting together after an Intentional Foul call and one saying the "ball will be inbounded closest to the call" and the other "the ball should be inbounded at mid-court."

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But this was not a case of "Here is what happened, what is the call?" Neither was it a case of "Here is the call, what is the penalty?" There was no question of the penalty for either goaltending or a technical foul. The part in question was getting my partner to change the call from goaltending to a technical foul. If he had said "Nope, this is goaltending because it's Tuesday and he blocked the shot with his right hand," there would have been nothing I, or anyone else could have done about it.

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will. He can report me to the assignor, state and everybody else. Here's why I say this. A1 driving for a layup, lays it up, B1 comes in and slaps the crap out of the backboard, intentional/unintentional who cares, it causes the ball to fall of the rim. You can't apply the goaltending rule and award the 2 points, because this is clearly not goaltending. You can call a technical and award 2 free throws and the ball. BUt you can't count the basket. We've all seen funny bounces or in & outs, so we don't know for certain if the layup was going to fall, but if you misapply the rule and count the basket, and everybody in the gym knows that couldn't be a goaltending, when that tape gets sent into the state and your assignor, the one who is going to take in the butt is the "R". Yes, I am fully aware of what Rule 2.6 says, but I am also aware that the 1st Code in the Officials Code of ETHICS says that we must MASTER the rules of the game, and we, as officials, should always try and get the call right. My .02.

After reading my post, I do want add that if I am the R, I am giving that official every chance in the book to change his call, even if I have to quote rule citation, section and page number .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

If I am the "R", there is something I can do. I will not kick a rule simply because my partner doesn't want to change his call, especially in this case (goaltending vs. technical foul). If he doesn't change the call, then I will.

Can you do what you are saying? Probably, unless your partner refuses to give in and continues to report/attempt to enforce his own call. (this, to me, is worst case scenario) Is what you are trying to do reasonable? Yes. Is what your are trying to do supported by rule? No.

[Junker]

I had a similar play just this weekend. I worked my annual "do a good deed" kids tournament for free (I actually enjoy it). Our last game was the 8th grade boys championship. We worked 3 man, one newer official, one that works a lot of college and myself. With about a minute left, the team that was ahead goes in for a lay up, misses it and the defender that was trailing the play brushes the net with his hand. He didn't grab it, didn't move the rim, I have nothing from C. Our L, the newer guy, hits his whistle and gives me the "that is something isn't it?" look. I knew right away what he was thinking and ran in to conference right away. I told him that there was nothing to be called so we have to go to the AP (no team control because of the shot) and inbound the ball. My other experienced partner explained it to the coaches and away we went. I'm sure it would have been a much tougher sell at the end of a close varsity game. BTW, after the game I talked to the guy that was L about not looking up from L.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can you do what you are saying? Probably, unless your partner refuses to give in and continues to report/attempt to enforce his own call. (this, to me, is worst case scenario) Is what you are trying to do reasonable? Yes. Is what your are trying to do supported by rule? No.

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen. Somebody made you an "R" for a reason. Many of us have seen where referee careers were made for the good and the bad in situations like that. Many of us know of officials that have lost many assignments because they chose to kick a rule. Me personally, that's the first thing I say in my pre-game, and that is we will not kick a rule tonight, not intentionally that is.

Which is worse, to misuse your power and throw a partner under the bus? Or to allow your crew to make a bad call that changes the outcome of a game? That's Hobson's choice in a nutshell. Proceed with great caution!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Junker

We worked 3 man, one newer official, one that works a lot of college and myself.

Ah, the decline of education is rearing its head, and myself is saddened.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Which is worse, to misuse your power and throw a partner under the bus? Or to allow your crew to make a bad call that changes the outcome of a game? That's Hobson's choice in a nutshell. Proceed with great caution!!

Juulie, all I can say is wow.

If you are certain your partner kicks a rule fix it. Period.

Easy example: A has the ball in their back court for 8 seconds when granted a time out. Your partner at T calls a BC violation after 2 seconds, saying by rule A does not get a fresh 10 seconds. What do you do? Worry about your partner's feelings? I hope not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Easy example: A has the ball in their back court for 8 seconds when granted a time out. Your partner at T calls a BC violation after 2 seconds, saying by rule A does not get a fresh 10 seconds. What do you do?

Tell your partner he's not officiating in Europe any more, and we don't use metric rules here.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Somebody made you an "R" for a reason.

As stated earlier, I was not the referee, partner was. Around here, who is the referee means very little, and in this particular case meant nothing.

I completely understand the "an official has no authority to set aside another officials call...", but if you know for a fact that one of your crew member is about to kick a rule where it can determine the outcome of the game, you may want to think hard about letting that happen.

I did not let it happen. I did what I could, which was give my partner all the information I had which was relevant to the rule and the call. He corrected the call, but had he not, I see no way that I could have.

About the closest thing I ever had to a standoff with a partner during a game involved the throw-in spot after a foul. I reported the foul, and turned to see partner holding the ball at the endline. I blew a quick whistle and pointed to the sideline. Partner did not move. (maybe he didn't see me, I thought) I took a few steps closer, and again indicated that the spot was on the sideline. He, obviously annoyed, gave in and moved. I heard some snickers and later heard some comments from people who thought the whole thing was funny.

Using all available resources to get every call right goes without saying, but the importance of an officiating crew presenting a united front should not be underestimated.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Imo there is no way for any official to definitively know that any backboard slap actually did cause a ball to spin out of the basket. And if there is no way to definitively know, you might be penalizing a player for an act that had no affect on the play.

And that statement could equallly be applied to a real BI or GT call too. The defense is penalized even when the shot may have missed...we'll never know. So, that is not a sufficient reason to favor or oppose a rule change on making backboard contact the same as BI.