Communication to get call straight

[just another ref]

Last night, boys varsity, last minute of a close game. Visitors make a steal and wind up with a 2 on none. B1 lays it up and as ball is on the rim A1 comes flying in and smacks the board. (the classic we're gonna lose now but look how high I can jump thing) Partner was lead, kinda right beside the play, he whistles and emphatically signals basket good. I blew my whistle to get his attention and called a quick huddle. "What did you call?" "Goaltending." "He didn't touch the ball." "Ball had already hit the board." "If he didn't touch the ball, it can't be goaltending." Well, it's a tech, anyway." He shrugged. I thought, uh-oh, he thinks, goaltending, bucket good, technical, close enough. I said, "Technical is what it is, or nothing. It's your call." He went over and huddled with home coach. I saw him gesture in my direction, so I think a part of his explanation was "cuz he said so." Home coach yelled across at me, "Does the basket count?" I shook my head no. Visiting coach meanwhile had a pained expression,
"What....what is the deal?" Partner simply said, "Technical foul." Home coach added, "You're getting the best of the deal." The ironic thing is that I think both coaches were happier with the wrong call than the right call. It turned out to be a non-issue. B missed both t shots, then inbounded, got fouled, and made both.

My question is, when I told partner it can't be goaltending, if he had refused to change the call, there would have been nothing further for me to do, right?

I was already mentally practicing saying, with a straight face, "He called goaltending, coach."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My question is, when I told partner it can't be goaltending, if he had refused to change the call, there would have been nothing further for me to do, right?

Who is the Referee? If you are the Referee you could change the call or make the proper call if you are in that position. Otherwise all you can do give the proper information and if he does not change it there is not much you can do at the moment. This is one of the rare moments where being the Referee really matters.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I was already mentally practicing saying, with a straight face, "He called goaltending, coach."

I do not know if I would say anything other than, "Ask the official when he comes in front of you."

Peace

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who is the Referee? If you are the Referee you could change the call or make the proper call if you are in that position. Otherwise all you can do give the proper information and if he does not change it there is not much you can do at the moment. This is one of the rare moments where being the Referee really matters.



I do not know if I would say anything other than, "Ask the official when he comes in front of you."

Peace

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

I am glad I read down and you referenced the exact rule I was referring to.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am glad I read down and you referenced the exact rule I was referring to.

Peace

Glad I could help.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

I would think this is written with regard to a last second shot. The disagreement in this situation has to do with the call of goaltending. If goaltending is called, the basket definitely counts. Neither official has the authority to overrule the other's call of goaltending, no matter how wrong it may be. If the umpire waves off a basket because of a traveling call, the referee cannot count the basket because he feels the traveling call was incorrect.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I would think this is written with regard to a last second shot. The disagreement in this situation has to do with the call of goaltending. If goaltending is called, the basket definitely counts. Neither official has the authority to overrule the other's call of goaltending, no matter how wrong it may be. If the umpire waves off a basket because of a traveling call, the referee cannot count the basket because he feels the traveling call was incorrect.

You might be completely right. But from what I am reading the rule does not classify that position one what kind of situation the basket can be changed. And personally I would not want to count a basket that is erroneously awarded. Now if the ball goes in than it is not much of a problem. I would just do everything I could to get that call changed. And if the official insisted on sticking with his call, he would be on his own to get out of it. I would be explaining his ruling. I would not sell him out either, I just would not be apart of the explanation.

Also in reality, many people that are assigned the Referee position are given that responsibility to get out of these kinds of situations. I know what the rule says, but if you allow an obvious rule misapplication, you all will go down potentially and often they look at the Referee.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut is refering to 2-5-3, Referee's duties during the game: "Decide whether a goal should count if the officials disagree."

Not relevant.

This is for a shot that does go in but is in question....did time expire or not, did two officials give opposing signals (good/no-good) on a buzzer shot, etc.

It is NOT to overrule the calling of an infraction that results in awarded/canceled points....to determine if there was GT or not. You can't overrule a partner's GT call and if you can't do that, you can't change the penalty for GT.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I disagree with this assessment. Just because you are the Referee, and not U1 or U2 does not give you the authority to "overrule" your partner. Rule 2-6 states, "No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties."

I think that the best thing to do in a situation such as this is to talk to your partner and ask him why he called what he did. Then, if you believe he interpreted something incorrectly, let him know, and explain why. Then give him the opportunity to change his own call.

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'd argue that 2-5-3 applies here.

Judgment calls cannot be overridden. Misinterpretations of rules can (carefully).

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Yabut, the play in question is "specifically covered in the rules", with the penalty (if one) all spelled out. If the calling official says BI or GT and won't change, too bad for the crew. The call stands.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Is it possible that 2-3 applies here? Misapplication of this rule seems different than 2-5-3, but a disagreement about the proper penalty and/or application of a rule does not seem to be covered anywhere.

2-3...The referee shall make decisions on any points no specifically covered in the rules.

Does not apply. The proper ruling is quite clearly specified in the rules.

2-5-3 is not going to apply either. This isn't about whether or not a goal scores. The matter of goaltending or BI is about an awarded basket. The referee has no more jurisdiction to reverse an umpires GT call than he does to reverse a traveling call or foul call. Even based on the misapplication of a rule.

The best that can be done is to present the calling official with the proper information and hope he/she will make the proper ruling.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who is the Referee? If you are the Referee you could change the call or make the proper call if you are in that position.

He was actually the referee.

2-6: No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official within the limits of their respective duties.

So you have a technical on A1 for slapping the backboard while the try is on the rim, but why wouldn't you count the basket??