Travel Question

[mbyron]

Day or night game?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Rizzo21

What if A1 leaves his feet and he loses the ball, B1 touches the ball and A1 catches the ball then lands with both feet? Would the answer be different if A1 was shooting the ball during this process? Thanks...

I would say it depends on whether or not you judge that the player jumped in order to attempt a try or some other reason. If they jumped to attempt a try, then the try has begun. In that case you apply 4.44.3 Sit A which indicates that this is a travel...however, if this happened by halfcourt for instance, the player was jumping to attempt a pass, then I would not apply 4.44.3 Sit A because it specifically says A1 "jumps to try for goal"....in this case I would say the player can recover their own fumble, so you have no call...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rizzo21

What if A1 leaves his feet and he loses the ball, B1 touches the ball and A1 catches the ball then lands with both feet? Would the answer be different if A1 was shooting the ball during this process? Thanks...

If B1 touched the ball, then I'd make the play legal no matter why A jumped (try or pass).

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If B1 touched the ball, then I'd make the play legal no matter why A jumped (try or pass).

4.44.3 Sit A (c)?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by kbilla

4.44.3 Sit A (c)?

That's not the same as the play in question. In the play in question, A1 "loses the ball". In the case play, he didn't.

And, in 99.5% of the cases, if B touches the ball while A is holding it, and A continues to hold it, I'm judging the play to be a held ball (B prevented the release).

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not the same as the play in question. In the play in question, A1 "loses the ball". In the case play, he didn't.

And, in 99.5% of the cases, if B touches the ball while A is holding it, and A continues to hold it, I'm judging the play to be a held ball (B prevented the release).

Agree with you on the held ball....BUT as far as A1 "losing the ball", you'd kind of have to judge when the try began. By definition, the routine motion immediately preceeding the try (or something to that effect) is part of the try. Therefore you could make a case that once A1 left his/her feet, this is part of that routine motion and the try had begun, therefore apply 4.43.3...whether he/she fumbles at this point is sort of consequential, they had attempted a try....this is why I said you'd have to judge if the player jumped to attempt a try or for some other reason...since they never actually released it prior to the fumble, it could be hard to tell...for that reason, to be honest I probably would not call a travel either, but it seems like you'd have a good argument by rule, no?

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's not the same as the play in question. In the play in question, A1 "loses the ball". In the case play, he didn't.

And, in 99.5% of the cases, if B touches the ball while A is holding it, and A continues to hold it, I'm judging the play to be a held ball (B prevented the release).

Incidentally I hate 4.43.3 Sit A(c)...how is it that A1 can shoot an airball and recover it without penalty, but in this situation A1 shoots, it gets blocked by B1, A1 catches it and returns to the floor, and you have a travel? Once it is blocked if it is coming back to you and you catch it, it is clear the try will be unsuccessful, therefore the try has ended, why can't you recover it? This is another one of those that I'm quite sure I have never called, it is always either a held ball, or the ball squirts away...what if A1 shoots, B1 blocks it, A1 returns to the floor, and then the ball lands in A1's hands?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Incidentally I hate 4.43.3 Sit A(c)...how is it that A1 can shoot an airball and recover it without penalty, but in this situation A1 shoots, it gets blocked by B1, A1 catches it and returns to the floor, and you have a travel? Once it is blocked if it is coming back to you and you catch it, it is clear the try will be unsuccessful, therefore the try has ended, why can't you recover it? This is another one of those that I'm quite sure I have never called, it is always either a held ball, or the ball squirts away...what if A1 shoots, B1 blocks it, A1 returns to the floor, and then the ball lands in A1's hands?

That's actually 4.44.3 Sit A(c), but I agree - it's one that's never made sense to me, unless I'm reading it wrong. I see it as a try, and then recovering a ball that has no player control while airborne.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

That's actually 4.44.3 Sit A(c), but I agree - it's one that's never made sense to me, unless I'm reading it wrong. I see it as a try, and then recovering a ball that has no player control while airborne.

Thanks for that, you are right 4.44.3SitA(c)....

Well there is still player control until the player returns to the floor under the airborne shooter provision, but the try has ended once it is certain that it will be unsuccessful....I'd say that if it is flying back at A1 it is pretty certain that it will be unsuccessful....if the try has ended, why can't A1 recover it just like anyone else?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Well there is still player control until the player returns to the floor under the airborne shooter provision

Gonna have to disagree here - we can still call a PC foul at that point, but:

4-12-6...Neither team control nor player control exist during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

So, back to my original argument and the outcome we're in agreement about, once the try is in flight and PC has ended it makes little sense to me why a player can't regain control of a ball batted back at him/her and land.

I'm sure there's reasoning I'm not seeing, but I'd love if someone could explain it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Incidentally I hate 4.43.3 Sit A(c)...how is it that A1 can shoot an airball and recover it without penalty, but in this situation A1 shoots, it gets blocked by B1, A1 catches it and returns to the floor, and you have a travel? Once it is blocked if it is coming back to you and you catch it, it is clear the try will be unsuccessful, therefore the try has ended, why can't you recover it? This is another one of those that I'm quite sure I have never called, it is always either a held ball, or the ball squirts away...what if A1 shoots, B1 blocks it, A1 returns to the floor, and then the ball lands in A1's hands?

You're misreading 4.44.3A(c). The ball never left A's hands in this play.

A jumps for a try. While A is holding the ball, B touches it, but so lightly that it doesn't affect A's ability to release the ball. A doesn't release the ball, but returns to the floor still holding the ball.

IF that's what you judge, then it's a travel.

I agree with that, but I will judge that the contact prevented the release in most situations.

You seem to think the play is: A jumps to try for goal and releases the ball. B bats the ball back to A who catches the ball and returns to the floor.

I agree that this is a legal play, but it's not the play that's in the case book.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Gonna have to disagree here - we can still call a PC foul at that point, but:

4-12-6...Neither team control nor player control exist during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

So, back to my original argument and the outcome we're in agreement about, once the try is in flight and PC has ended it makes little sense to me why a player can't regain control of a ball batted back at him/her and land.

I'm sure there's reasoning I'm not seeing, but I'd love if someone could explain it.

No you are correct, I was reading something into your statement that wasn't there...completely irrelevant to this conversation...agreed, I would love to hear the rationale if someone has it...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

So, back to my original argument and the outcome we're in agreement about, once the try is in flight and PC has ended it makes little sense to me why a player can't regain control of a ball batted back at him/her and land.

I'm sure there's reasoning I'm not seeing, but I'd love if someone could explain it.

Your conclusion is incorrect. The player CAN catch the ball and land....legally. As Bob replied to kbilla, you're both misreading the case...where the ball never left the shooter's hands.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You're misreading 4.44.3A(c). The ball never left A's hands in this play.

A jumps for a try. While A is holding the ball, B touches it, but so lightly that it doesn't affect A's ability to release the ball. A doesn't release the ball, but returns to the floor still holding the ball.

IF that's what you judge, then it's a travel.

I agree with that, but I will judge that the contact prevented the release in most situations.

You seem to think the play is: A jumps to try for goal and releases the ball. B bats the ball back to A who catches the ball and returns to the floor.

I agree that this is a legal play, but it's not the play that's in the case book.

Thanks, Bob, that's exactly how I was reading it. In re-reading it now I see that B1 touches the ball while A1 is still holding it - that's what all four pieces of the situation address.

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree that it's going to have to be a pretty clear situation for me not to call a held ball.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your conclusion is incorrect. The player CAN catch the ball and land....legally. As Bob replied to kbilla, you're both misreading the case...where the ball never left the shooter's hands.

Yep, makes perfect sense now. Thanks.