rotation

[mick]

Originally Posted by fullor30

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by mick

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

I'm with you mick. It's a weak move to stay on the weak side at Lead. Instead of being late on getting over there when a post player dives to the ball side block, like any good post would, you can beat the play over there. But like I said earlier this is one weird situation apparently.

There was no chance in hell of any "possible post play" on the opposite block. I have never seen an entry pass to the post from the totally opposite wing into the opposite side post.

P.S. Fullor I'm glad you came somewhere, anywhere to ask questions. That shows that you want to learn and thats great. I don't know if you have been to any camps, but you should go to some high level ones with big time referees as your instructors. Maybe they can convince you that this is not the correct thought process to have on this type of play. I can almost guarantee you that all the "big time referees" who don't have dead legs are going to get over there on this play or at least the ones I know. What is it or how is it going to hurt you or your crew to get over there? I am really asking this question of you. I am now wanting to get inside yours and JRut's head, who I am suprised has this train of thought on this play. All I can think of is the negatives that come out of you NOT rotating. What are the positives of you not rotating?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I just guess we are taught in two diffrent ways then, cause if I don't rotate my boss would be on my rear end about. They can't stress enough about having strongside officiating. Plus, I guess this is just an unusual play, cause you are not going to see, too many times, two players on one side of the floor and no one cutting to the ball, it just doesn't make basketball sense.

I see this play quite often on the boy's side. And the reason I think that is, is because the boy's try to break down their defenders off the dribble more often from the top of the key. It is just a different style of play issue, but it happens often with good guards.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I guess we have to agree to disagree here as well. I don't know what level you are talking about when you say you can ref this play alone, but if you are talking college, which you referee, I think you are a god and that you are better than any referee at the NBA level, none of which believe they can have a high percentage of correct calls while reffing a two man game Pn'R by themselves. IMO there is just too much going on. Hip holds by the defender on the screener (before the role and even harder after the role to the basket), the screener with an extended leg on the on ball defender, illegal forearm reroute on the dribbler trying to push over the screen, lock ups with the screener and the on ball defender, etc. I just don't believe you get as many plays right if you have to referee plays like this, alone.

First of all the NBA has a different set of rules. The NBA does not have a true zone defense. The NBA does not have 5 second counts for closely guarded. And the NBA as a whole has a different speed of the game. And the last time I checked I have never seen a NBA player come from the Women's side and the mechanic I have advocated is done by guys that see the Kevin Durants and Greg Odens all the time. Those officials do not seem to have a hard time covering that type of play. The NBA comparison is really a bad one if you ask me because a lot of the play is not more than a one on one match up with the other players standing around. That does not happen in HS and college basketball like it does in the NBA. And yes I can see a ball handler, the defender and the screener and even the player that is guarding the screener. And based on what I just told you, all those players will not even be where the lead would be looking. And if you think that is bad, then how is one guy going to officiate 8 players all by him or herself if you rotate away from all those players.

Look, do what you want, but in Illinois many despise the Women's mechanics. If you want to work the Women's mechanics, then go officiate Women's basketball. Rotating just because the ball is on one side is just a bad idea.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I see this play quite often on the boy's side. And the reason I think that is, is because the boy's try to break down their defenders off the dribble more often from the top of the key. It is just a different style of play issue, but it happens often with good guards.

I don't see how that is a clear out if it happens at the top of the key. Does everybody go down to the baseline?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all the NBA has a different set of rules. The NBA does not have a true zone defense. The NBA does not have 5 second counts for closely guarded. And the NBA as a whole has a different speed of the game. And the last time I checked I have never seen a NBA player come from the Women's side and the mechanic I have advocated is done by guys that see the Kevin Durants and Greg Odens all the time. Those officials do not seem to have a hard time covering that type of play. The NBA comparison is really a bad one if you ask me because a lot of the play is not more than a one on one match up with the other players standing around. That does not happen in HS and college basketball like it does in the NBA. And yes I can see a ball handler, the defender and the screener and even the player that is guarding the screener. And based on what I just told you, all those players will not even be where the lead would be looking. And if you think that is bad, then how is one guy going to officiate 8 players all by him or herself if you rotate away from all those players.

Look, do what you want, but in Illinois many despise the Women's mechanics. If you want to work the Women's mechanics, then go officiate Women's basketball. Rotating just because the ball is on one side is just a bad idea.

Peace

What mechanic is that? Not going across?

You are also incorrect in assuming the NBA has alot of one on one. It has a good amount of one on one, especially very late in ball games where players just have one superstar, but as much tape and as many games as I watch, the plurality of plays are of the Two man game sort.

I believe totally that you can see all the players in a two man game, but do you, being your own harshest critic, believe you can REFEREE them at the college level and higher?

Also the L, unless preoccupied by an aggressive match up in the post, which we don't have in this situation, should be looking up on the wing during the two man game to have two sets of eyes covering it. If it is more toward the top of the key then it should be between the Trail and the Slot official.

How much of an action area will you actually have that far away from the ball? All or the majority of the action happens around or near the ball.

Hey where I live many despise the mechanics too but I want to get the play right and in my opinion and the opinions of some of my bosses outside the area I live they believe this is the case as well.

I'll leave it at that, but to also say that I respect your opinions and always have, just in this case I am very adamant about what should take place here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

There was no chance in hell of any "possible post play" on the opposite block. I have never seen an entry pass to the post from the totally opposite wing into the opposite side post.

I disagree with that statement. Because I see teams that are one-sided (right handed or left handed) and they move the ball only to bring the ball back to the same side because that is where their big men like to go to the basket. And at the HS level it is very common because players are not as skilled to use both hands equally.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

P.S. Fullor I'm glad you came somewhere, anywhere to ask questions. That shows that you want to learn and thats great. I don't know if you have been to any camps, but you should go to some high level ones with big time referees as your instructors. Maybe they can convince you that this is not the correct thought process to have on this type of play. I can almost guarantee you that all the "big time referees" who don't have dead legs are going to get over there on this play or at least the ones I know. What is it or how is it going to hurt you or your crew to get over there? I am really asking this question of you. I am now wanting to get inside yours and JRut's head, who I am suprised has this train of thought on this play. All I can think of is the negatives that come out of you NOT rotating. What are the positives of you not rotating?

I also had to respond to this, because it would depend on what you call a "big time referee." I attend a camp almost every year in my area that is run by an official that has been to multiple Final Fours and was worked the Final Four just this past year. I can tell you he teaches things very differently than a camp run by the most powerful Women's Supervisor in the country just a few miles away. If you attend her camp that is also run in the same general Chicago area, you will have to use a completely different set of mechanics. I also attended Dale Kelly's Camp who has multiple NCAA Tournament officials working as clinicians and they do not teach to rotate like you have suggested. As a matter of fact I was given about a 30 minute lecture (as well as my two partners who work D1 at the time of this game) about rotations. The person that did is a new supervisor in a D1 conference in the south and was also a Final Four Official during his career. He specifically told me (and my partners) not to rotate just because the ball goes to one side and all the players are on the other. He even told me to rotate away from the ball if all the players are on the other side court and you know based on tendencies the team likes to go to that side of the floor. So it really depends on what you call "big time" because that changes based on whose camp you go to.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I don't see how that is a clear out if it happens at the top of the key. Does everybody go down to the baseline?
What mechanic is that? Not going across?

I do not think it is a "mechanic." That is a philosophy that is taught. Usually the term I hear the most is "rotate with a purpose." In other words you do not just rotate just to follow the ball; you rotate because that is where you need to be.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

You are also incorrect in assuming the NBA has alot of one on one. It has a good amount of one on one, especially very late in ball games where players just have one superstar, but as much tape and as many games as I watch, the plurality of plays are of the Two man game sort.

Right or wrong, the NBA has many officials on their staff that has not been officiating basketball longer than many guys that you see on TV working D1 ball. There are people that have not been officiating basketball much more than 10 years total and they are in the NBA because they took a different route to get that kind of opportunity. Comparing the NBA to this discussion when we are not talking about an NBA game is kind of silly.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I believe totally that you can see all the players in a two man game, but do you, being your own harshest critic, believe you can REFEREE them at the college level and higher?

Not only do I believe I can officiate that play, I have done so many times already. If you get a team that runs their offense with cuts and screens near the top of the key, where do you think most players are located? Not all offenses are designed only where players run around in the paint.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Also the L, unless preoccupied by an aggressive match up in the post, which we don't have in this situation, should be looking up on the wing during the two man game to have two sets of eyes covering it. If it is more toward the top of the key then it should be between the Trail and the Slot official.

How much of an action area will you actually have that far away from the ball? All or the majority of the action happens around or near the ball.

Neither of us knows what kind of aggressive action that was taking place in this game. Often the most aggressive actions by players are away from the ball. This is why it is taught to watch off ball. At least the games I see on a regular basis. I just came from a scrimmage tonight with a team in the Chicago Catholic League. I was one of the instructors for this scrimmage to help younger officials in working the game. There was a lot of contact and physical play off ball that the officials were missing because they were busy watching the ball and not their area. And this was a scrimmage with players of the same team. Just imagine what might have happen if these were rivals in this conference. And it is very well known that the conference I just mentioned is a very physical and aggressive league. This is not just about this league that happens in a lot of basketball I see in many different areas I tend to work games.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Hey where I live many despise the mechanics too but I want to get the play right and in my opinion and the opinions of some of my bosses outside the area I live they believe this is the case as well.

If you really paid attention to what I said, I did not say to never rotate. I said that if you have most of the players on one side of the court, you rotate when it is necessary, not just because the ball is on that side of the court. It is very possible that rotating might be the only thing to do in this situation, but if the ball has not settled, you can wait.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I'll leave it at that, but to also say that I respect your opinions and always have, just in this case I am very adamant about what should take place here.

Let me also say this to you. You are disagreeing with my opinion on the issue of rotations that is completely alright with me. I am just saying that in my experience what you are saying is not the way it is taught and not the way that many outside of Women's basketball look at the mechanics. Every year the CCA Women's Committee goes in one direction and the CCA Men's Committee goes in another. There is a reason there are totally different books made and why the NF does not completely adopt college philosophies. Heck there are people that cannot stand the "closely guarded" mechanic.

Peace

[TD21]

I would have to agree with those who say rotate in this situation. JRut's argument is valid in the sense that he is saying there are 8 players on one side of the floor and if the lead were to rotate that would leave on official to referee those 8. Having said that, I believe the lead still needs to rotate. There are many what ifs in this situation, but I'd rather be strong side and ahead of any players that are coming strong side. We all know that the one thing that the players are all looking for is the ball. The players are going to go where the ball is or the side of the floor where the ball is. So why not get strong side before the players do? I do agree with JRut in the fact the cllege men's and women's is two different mechanic sets, but I disagree with his thoughts on the difference between college women's and highschool, especially high school girls. NF follows college womens very closely, so it would seem more realistic to follow their philosophy, which in this case would be, to rotate strong side. I can't think of a situation where the trail would have to retreat to referee a play that the lead shouldn't come across. Having said that we can always rotate back if we need to. I always want a to referee as lead from strong side.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TD21

NF follows college womens very closely, so it would seem more realistic to follow their philosophy, which in this case would be, to rotate strong side. I can't think of a situation where the trail would have to retreat to referee a play that the lead shouldn't come across. Having said that we can always rotate back if we need to. I always want a to referee as lead from strong side.

CCA Women's approved mechanic that the NF does not use.

• Two hand reporting.
• No stop clock for out of bounds calls
• Not stopping to report a foul (walk and talk)
• Rotation philosophy (the language they both use is different)
• Last second shot coming only from the C
• Signal mechanic--"hit to the head" or "using the knee" or "hooking/wrap"
• Lead's coverage area extends to the sideline, and the Lead official has out of bounds coverage on the sideline
• Lead has 3 point attempt responsibility
• Counting the basket (2 fingers coming downward)
• No bird-dogging
• Team Control signal (used for both PC and TC Fouls)

Those are all that I can think of off the top of my head.

Peace

[TD21]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

CCA Women's approved mechanic that the NF does not use.

• Two hand reporting.
• No stop clock for out of bounds calls
• Not stopping to report a foul (walk and talk)
• Rotation philosophy (the language they both use is different)
• Last second shot coming only from the C
• Signal mechanic--"hit to the head" or "using the knee" or "hooking/wrap"
• Lead's coverage area extends to the sideline, and the Lead official has out of bounds coverage on the sideline
• Lead has 3 point attempt responsibility
• Counting the basket (2 fingers coming downward)
• No bird-dogging
• Team Control signal (used for both PC and TC Fouls)

Those are all that I can think of off the top of my head.

Peace

I was refering to the court coverages. Besides the fact the lead takes the three point shooter in the corner there are no real differences. I could name many of the same differences in the men's game from NF too, and I believe you referred to that as to where you were getting your philosophy for not rotating. We were talking about rotations not all the differences between the men's, women's and federation mechanics. Wording in "rotation philosophy"? Not sure what you are talking about here, maybe the difference between center and slot? All the other things you mentioned just make it much easier to officiate the game. That's why the NBA does it much the same way or vice versa. All that aside, we are discussing if we should rotate strong side or not in the above mentioned situation. I say yes and would do so everytime. I have never heard at any camp I have gone to stay and referee as the lead on the weak side of the floor. Would you go from strong side to weak side if just the ball and two players were strong side? I wouldn't. I'd wait for the players to come across to me. The players, especially post players are going to go where they can get the ball, and if the ball is on the opposite side of the floor from them, they are going to go across and get in position to get the ball. If you are weak side, why not go strong side and beat them there? If the ball gets swung..........go back. If you don't rotate and they start to move across now you are too late.

[TD21]

JRut....let's say we are working a game together and we decide in the pregame that we aren't going to rotate strong side if all the other players are on the weak side of the floor. Now what does each of the three officials do? My guess would be the Lead stays with the post players, the Trail stays with players in his/her primary and the Center does what? The C has the ball but does he stay in the C and turn and officiate or does he move up the floor and make the crew have two Trails? I know its ok to have two Centers but I don't think its good to have two Trail officials. How close to half court, do you think the center should go before the lead does rotate? Should the lead never rotate in this situation? If the lead doesn't and the ball is at just across half court, what happens if the ball gets turned over? Do we keep our same positions in transition? Or do we rotate as we come up the floor? These are all things we need to take into consideration when we talk about wether we should or shouldn't rotate. I understand that we all have our reasons for rotating or not. I know why I do it the way I do I'm just trying to get some information as to why people do it other ways. I'm not sure if this is something you could pregame.

[TD21]

I agree that we all learn different things at camps based on where you attend, what level the camp is and who is running the camp. But do you think this is another philosophy difference based on what region you work, or what level of basketball you work? Or is it just a preference issue? The only reason I ask is because I would rotate in that situation in any game I work, no matter the level. I know the differences in the mechanics and court coverages but that doesn't change the fact that I would want to be strong side as the Lead. That's my preference and I believe that works the best. I am assuming , by this thread, that others do it differently, based on what they've been taught. I don't buy into the thought that it has to do with which side, men/women (and its application to highschool games) you work. My guess, and I could be wrong, is it is more of who you are learning from. I think we all get taught/told how to do things, we try them and if we like them we use it in our game and if we don't we do it a different way. I think this maybe one of those things. I don't know if either way is wrong. I guess it is what works for you and you think is best to put yourself in the best position to referee that play. At the end on of the day its all about being in the best position to referee.

[JRutledge]

TD21,

I have been blessed to work almost all of my 12 years with some extensive 3 Person Mechanics. And definitely 10 of those years the vast majority of my schedule has been working 3 Person on a nightly basis.

I do not recall that I have ever had a pre-game about all the possibilities of a rotation. The only thing I might say about rotations is rotate with a purpose and do not rotate just to rotate. After that I would expect that you are assigned the game because the assignor or supervisor thinks you are competent enough in the system to work a game. And pre-games in my opinion are to just get to know your partners and not to talk more about detail mechanics and have a rules clinic. I honestly do not know why that is so hard to understand. I said I would not rotate in the situation described based on my experience in 3 Person and following the things in this state that are taught. I think I am pretty qualified to know what is expected considering that I work for the head clinician and rules interpreter for the state of Illinois and I have talked with him extensively about what he wants officials to do in Illinois. I have also been picked to teach those mechanics and I am sure if I did not know what I was doing I would not be put in the position I have been given. And it does not bother me one bit if you do it differently. But for an official in this state to insist that the OPer had to rotate is not accurate. And based on what I have read (and I was correct) the official speaking had college experience. And one of the biggest problems we have around here is we have college official that insist on doing the things the college way (especially on the Women's side) and it hurts them when people consider them for certain assignments and opportunities.

Peace

[daveg144]

At the three camps I attended last summer (2 women's college and one high school) the philosophy regarding rotation was pretty consistent. With the exception of the difference in coverage (women's college lead has three point shot in corner), the reasons to rotate are simply to get in the best position to see the play. One clinician summed it up like this, "If you think you need to rotate, then rotate.". That may seem simple, but it makes sense. How many times have you been in the lead and for whatever reason you find yourself on the weak side (maybe the ball has been going back and forth and never seems to settle on one side or the other)? My first thought is, "get over there!".

In the poster's original play, it's hard to say whether he should have rotated or not without seeing anything. So far this year in my scrimmages, I have rotated more than last year and it's just so I can be in the best position to see the whole play. I tell my partners that I rotate a lot, but I don't rotate just to rotate. Again, it's just to see the play better.

That's my $.02.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

[mick]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

That's some camp!
If, at your camp, the Lead is on the weak side, then the Trail and Center are on the strong side. Funny thing to teach.