Is this a T?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

In MHO, I suggest that you RE-read NFHS R7-S5-A7 completely, especially the last sentence of the article, as well as the rule that defines when a throw-in ends before you call a throw-in violation on Team A.

MTD, Sr.

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.

BZ:

When a throw-in, as in NFHS R7-S5-A7, is germane, more importantly, this is NOT a designated spot throw-in. NFHS R7-S6-A1 notes that NFHS R7-S5-A7 is an exception to only one player making the throw-in. NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows the following sceniaros:

1) All five (5) players from Team A are behind the endline. A1 passes the ball to A2, who passes the ball to A3, who passes the ball to A4, who passes the ball to A5, who passes the ball to A1 who then passes the ball to A3 who is standing inbounds. A1 released his pass to A3 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing inbounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

3) I could go on with more plays but I think you see my point, that this throw-in is not a designated throw-in and the rules allow the team who has the ball for the throw-in much latitude in making a legal throw-in.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

2) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is behind the endline, after he passes the ball to A2 he steps inbounds. A2 sets the ball down on the floor behind the endline and steps inbounds. A3 then steps out-of-bounds, picks up the ball and passes the ball to A4 who is standing out-of-bounds. A3 released his pass to A4 before the five (5) second throw-in count expires.

Care to fix that?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

*Not knowing if I want to jump in the middle of this one*

This may again be one of those situations where may is an important word. Just because A may do those things doesn't mean those are the only two options...

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Following a goal by Team B, A1 collects the ball and steps OOB. He does not attempt to make a throw-in pass, but merely places the ball down on the floor and leaves. It is unclear why. Perhaps another teammate is supposed to come along, pick it up, and make the throw-in pass. However, in the meantime the official has begun the five-second count and B1, who is standing inbounds, reaches through the throw-in boundary plane and picks up the ball. He then attempts to score a goal.

The official sounds the whistle and:
1. gives a team delay of game warning for breaking the boundary plane.
2. gives a team delay of game warning AND a charges B1 with a technical foul.

Vote for #1 or #2 and give rules support.

Since 9-2 Penalty 3 explicitly says ...the opponent touches or dislodges the ball while in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line... I'm going to go with a delay of game warning for breaking the boundary plane.

Follow-up question: reading the question, I don't believe it would be a technical foul if B reached across and batted a pass from A1 to A2 who was also behind the end-line...interesting...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I vote for #2, and here is why:

1) I am going to issue an official warning to Team B.
See NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1.

2) I am going to charge B1 with a technical foul.
See NFHS R10-S3-A6a.


I can understands BITS logic for wanting to use:
NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3,
because one could infer that even though no player from Team A was in physical possession of the ball, it was at Team A's disposal when B1 reached thru the boundary plane and picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I vote for #2, and here is why:

1) I am going to issue an official warning to Team B.
See NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1.

2) I am going to charge B1 with a technical foul.
See NFHS R10-S3-A6a.


I can understands BITS logic for wanting to use:
NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3,
because one could infer that even though no player from Team A was in physical possession of the ball, it was in Team A's disposal when B1 reached thru the though boundary plane and picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

What is the difference between the two situations?

1). The ball was place on the floor by the official.
2). Team A place the ball on the floor.

in both situations team b reach through and touched the ball. How can the same act have different interpretations on how to penalize?

[Adam]

To me, the difference is of "possession" which is required by rule. I can argue that A is in possession of the ball even if he has temporarily set it down next to his feet. I have a harder time making that argument when the official has set it down instead and no one from A has picked it up yet.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by truerookie

What is the difference between the two situations?

1). The ball was place on the floor by the official.
2). Team A place the ball on the floor.

in both situations team b reach through and touched the ball. How can the same act have different interpretations on how to penalize?

I did not say there were two interpretations. I said that one could make the logical deduction that in this case the thrower could be considered in possession of the ball during a throw-in because the ball was at Team A's disposal for a throw-in. Both the NBCofUS&C and its successor organizations, the NFHS and the NCAA, have never made a ruling to my knowledge that defines this situation as a thrower being in possession of the ball while his team has the ball at its disposal. Therefore, it is a more logical to apply R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1 and NFHS R10-S3-A6a, than it is to use R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3, which requires the use of R10-S3-A11. The result is the same: team warning to Team B and a direct technical foul charged to B1.

MTD, Sr.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I think you are incorrect. Read 9-2 Penalty 3 again.

Hmmm...I is idiot. Outside the boundary line does, indeed, mean someone outide the boundary line...

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Hmmm...I is idiot. Outside the boundary line does, indeed, mean someone outide the boundary line...

I originally misread your post. I stand corrected.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I originally misread your post. I stand corrected.

No, you read it right - I misread the rule. In my head, I was thinking it stated passing it to someone inside the boundary, not outside. So, technical if it's in A's possession or being passed to A2 outside the boundary line.

[rainmaker]

If there were a teammate of A1 standing outside the boundary, and A1 put the ball down and stepped inbounds, and then A2 walked over and picked the ball up, would you call it a pass?

[jer166]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Following a goal by Team B, A1 collects the ball and steps OOB. He does not attempt to make a throw-in pass, but merely places the ball down on the floor and leaves. It is unclear why. Perhaps another teammate is supposed to come along, pick it up, and make the throw-in pass. However, in the meantime the official has begun the five-second count and B1, who is standing inbounds, reaches through the throw-in boundary plane and picks up the ball. He then attempts to score a goal.

The official sounds the whistle and:
1. gives a team delay of game warning for breaking the boundary plane.
2. gives a team delay of game warning AND a charges B1 with a technical foul.

Vote for #1 or #2 and give rules support.

I want to add:

3. gives a team delay of game warning for interfering with the ball following a goal...4-47-3


This is my take on this
#1 is not correct 9-2-10 The opponent of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundry... Since there is no thrower this rule can't be applied.

After reading the second situation submitted, I withdraw this statement and opt for the boundary plane warning based on the premise that a thrower does not have to be physically present to have a violation just as no thrower has to be physically present to have a 5 second violation.

#2 is incorrect. It is not correct to assess a T because in 9-2-10 penalty 3 the touching/dislodging must be while thrower is in possession of the ball or while the a pass to a teammate is being made.

[truerookie]

Isn't possesion and disposal synonymous to one another?