Is this a T?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I don't know. Good question. Why didn't the fed say "at the disposal of," or conversely, why didn't they say "while it's being held or passed?"

Valid point you've made about the wording.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Splute

That has been my logic to this point. It seems we are getting to the point on this forum that if the rule doesnt say the exact wording that meets the exact situtation at that exact moment ...... then what applies? intent applies, advantage / disadvantage applies, case plays apply, similar rulings perhaps... why doesnt possession and disposal in this case? or does it?

Agreed,

I can only speak for me. I know if I place the ball on the floor it's in possesion or disposal of the team. If they violate then the other team gets the ball and vice versa or get penalize appropiately.

[Adam]

I'm hitting this again for clarity now that I've had time to digest it.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. The throw-in is a designated spot throw-in, but Team A does not make a thrower immediately available so the official sounds the whistle and places the ball on the floor. B1 is confused and reaches across the boundary plane and grabs the ball.

I have to think the delay warning is best here. If the committee wants us to call this a direct T, they should change the wording to "disposal."

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

2. The throw-in is a designated spot throw-in. The official hands the ball to A1 and he sets the ball down on the floor between his legs, but he is not touching the ball, and proceeds to give hand signals to his teammates for two seconds. When he starts to bend down to pick up the ball, B1 reaches across the boundary plane and grabs the ball.

Here, I think A has possession, even he's not holding the ball.

Change it slightly: A1 takes the ball for the throwin and drops it straight down so it bounces several times. While it bounces, he makes his hand signals. Before he can grab the bouncing ball, B1 reaches over and grabs it.

I'm pretty sure I'd whistle this a T by instinct, and that I'd be right. A1 is in possession of this ball. It belongs to him until he releases the actual throwin pass. By rule, I can't find any basis to differentiate it from Nevada's 2nd situation above.

#1: delay of game violation.
#2: technical foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am not sure this was addressed since some of the rule ref numbers have changed in the new book, but in this original case wouldnt the 2006-07 Rule 9-2 Art. 1... The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass. , have killed the play before B1 reached across and grabbed the ball?

It's an endline throwin, there is no designated throwin spot, there is no designated thrower. A1 can give the ball to A2 and then release down the court to receive a pass.

Short answer to your question: No.

[Splute]

Ha thanks Snaqs.... read right over that.

[Splute]

Hey it gave me a good excuse to try out the delete button... works!

[blindzebra]

The rules still states that A1 must pass the ball directly onto the court or pass it to a teammate already OOB...A1 did neither, they put the ball on the floor with no teammate OOB or even moving to the ball OOB.

I'm handling this the same way I would if A1 was passing to A2 inbounds and the ball landed OOB...throw-in violation on team A for failing to pass it directly inbounds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

The rules still states that A1 must pass the ball directly onto the court or pass it to a teammate already OOB...A1 did neither, they put the ball on the floor with no teammate OOB or even moving to the ball OOB.

I'm handling this the same way I would if A1 was passing to A2 inbounds and the ball landed OOB...throw-in violation on team A for failing to pass it directly inbounds.

Can A1 roll the ball to A2? How is that intrinsically different than setting it down for A2 to pick up?
Can A1 bounce (dribble) the ball? How is that different than setting it down and picking it back up himself?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I vote for #2, and here is why:

1) I am going to issue an official warning to Team B.
See NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1.

2) I am going to charge B1 with a technical foul.
See NFHS R10-S3-A6a.


I can understands BITS logic for wanting to use:
NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3,
because one could infer that even though no player from Team A was in physical possession of the ball, it was at Team A's disposal when B1 reached thru the boundary plane and picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I vote for #2, and here is why:

1) I am going to issue an official warning to Team B.
See NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1.

2) I am going to charge B1 with a technical foul.
See NFHS R10-S3-A6a.


I can understands BITS logic for wanting to use:
NFHS R4-S47-A1, R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3,
because one could infer that even though no player from Team A was in physical possession of the ball, it was in Team A's disposal when B1 reached thru the though boundary plane and picked up the ball.

MTD, Sr.

What is the difference between the two situations?

1). The ball was place on the floor by the official.
2). Team A place the ball on the floor.

in both situations team b reach through and touched the ball. How can the same act have different interpretations on how to penalize?

[Adam]

To me, the difference is of "possession" which is required by rule. I can argue that A is in possession of the ball even if he has temporarily set it down next to his feet. I have a harder time making that argument when the official has set it down instead and no one from A has picked it up yet.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Can A1 roll the ball to A2? How is that intrinsically different than setting it down for A2 to pick up?
Can A1 bounce (dribble) the ball? How is that different than setting it down and picking it back up himself?

A1 didn't pass, roll, bounce, hand the ball to A2, A2 wasn't in the scenario at all that's the difference.

A1 didn't dribble, A1 didn't pick it back up, they left that's the difference.

You can make an argument to support any of the 3 warning, T, violation on team A...my stance is team A did not follow the throw-in provisions and that occurred before B1 picked up the ball.

In terms of common sense officiating blowing the cluster **** dead and getting a thrower OOB with the ball is probably the wisest choice.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by truerookie

What is the difference between the two situations?

1). The ball was place on the floor by the official.
2). Team A place the ball on the floor.

in both situations team b reach through and touched the ball. How can the same act have different interpretations on how to penalize?

I did not say there were two interpretations. I said that one could make the logical deduction that in this case the thrower could be considered in possession of the ball during a throw-in because the ball was at Team A's disposal for a throw-in. Both the NBCofUS&C and its successor organizations, the NFHS and the NCAA, have never made a ruling to my knowledge that defines this situation as a thrower being in possession of the ball while his team has the ball at its disposal. Therefore, it is a more logical to apply R9-S2-A11, Penalty 1 and NFHS R10-S3-A6a, than it is to use R9-S2-A11, Penalty 3, which requires the use of R10-S3-A11. The result is the same: team warning to Team B and a direct technical foul charged to B1.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

I'm leaning for a throw-in violation for failing to pass the ball directly onto the court.

7-5-7 a says: make a direct throw-in or pass the ball to a teammate OOB...putting the ball on the floor isn't passing and it isn't directly throwing the ball in.

BZ:

In MHO, I suggest that you RE-read NFHS R7-S5-A7 completely, especially the last sentence of the article, as well as the rule that defines when a throw-in ends before you call a throw-in violation on Team A.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

In MHO, I suggest that you RE-read NFHS R7-S5-A7 completely, especially the last sentence of the article, as well as the rule that defines when a throw-in ends before you call a throw-in violation on Team A.

MTD, Sr.

I read it again and it still says team A may make a throw-in from anywhere along the end line and the thrower may make a direct throw-in...A1 didn't...or pass the ball to a teammate(s) outside the boundary...again A1 didn't.

The throw-in ending isn't germane to team A violating prior to the ball touching a player.