Bounce pass to self

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong.

You're not dribbling again though if you never touch the ball again after 2-hand bouncing it to end your dribble.

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble. Well, that's just not true. You can have a bounce pass, fumble, bounce the ball hard and then run past it, leaving it for a trailer to pick up, etc. If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. To decide which is which, you have to wait until you see the result of the 2-handed bounce. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble. I also can't think of any definitive rule that states that it is a violation either.

To call the play properly, all I'm saying is that you have to wait and see what happens after the ball is 2-handedly bounced.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble.

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

Nope, I never said that. I said that the last dribble ended when it was touched with two hands. Whether there was a violation or not depends strictly on what happens after the last dribble ends. Make sense?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble.

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

Simple remedy. Don't try to understand anything that you don't have any knowledge at all about....like actual rules.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

How do you know if it's a dribble? You don't know until it comes up. How many drop passes look like dribbles? How many passes turn into dribbles? Just wait the split second it takes for the ball to come back up and hit the bouncer's hand before calling the violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, throws or bats the ball to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a pass occurs when a player throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally throw or bat the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the throw or bat that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- you and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat has to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

If you can determine instantly the split-second that a ball leaves the player's hands after he's ended his dribble that his throw or bat is actually a dribble and not a pass, you're a helluva lot better official than I am. Dare I say....you're almost god-like.

Note that a two-handed bounce pass and a two-handed power dribble by definition are started exactly the same way.

I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over.You and Nevada call it any way you want. I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.

That ain't gonna happen.
Both those guys are too good for that to happen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

That ain't gonna happen.
Both those guys are too good for that to happen.

If it doesn't happen, then they ain't following their professed play-calling philosophy.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly! And now maybe you can explain why you are going to call a violation on someone who just legally threw a damn bounce pass after ending their dribble. If you make that call before you see the the result of the complete play, that's exactly what you're doing. And good luck with that.

Where did I say anything about doing that?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, throws or bats the ball to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a pass occurs when a player throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally throw or bat the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the throw or bat that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- you and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat has to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

Again, from where are you deriving that this is my opinion.
Please go back through this entire thread and cite exactly where I took this position that you are assigning to me.

[just another ref]

As usual, JR's opinion is based on his unequaled knowledge of the rules. I respect this greatly. But, again, as usual, JR's opinion in this case is carried to an extreme. (I'm right, you're wrong...end of discussion) Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also cases when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass.

2)So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?