Bounce pass to self

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.

That ain't gonna happen.
Both those guys are too good for that to happen.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

That ain't gonna happen.
Both those guys are too good for that to happen.

If it doesn't happen, then they ain't following their professed play-calling philosophy.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Exactly! And now maybe you can explain why you are going to call a violation on someone who just legally threw a damn bounce pass after ending their dribble. If you make that call before you see the the result of the complete play, that's exactly what you're doing. And good luck with that.

Where did I say anything about doing that?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, throws or bats the ball to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a pass occurs when a player throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally throw or bat the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the throw or bat that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- you and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat has to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

Again, from where are you deriving that this is my opinion.
Please go back through this entire thread and cite exactly where I took this position that you are assigning to me.

[just another ref]

As usual, JR's opinion is based on his unequaled knowledge of the rules. I respect this greatly. But, again, as usual, JR's opinion in this case is carried to an extreme. (I'm right, you're wrong...end of discussion) Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also cases when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

1) When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass.

2)So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation.

How come you're changing your tune now? Going back to the post of yours above that I answered (again), you stated that it was an "immediate violation". Now you're advocating letting the play unfold? How can you know for sure which is which unless you let the play unfold?

How can you explain away the language of rule 4-31, which defines a "pass"? In both the definitions of a "dribble" and a "pass", the ball is thrown or batted.

You need to make up your mind.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

This is simply not true. Even if it's obvious that the player intends to dribble ( for example, bounce is right next to his foot and it bounces straight back up) if he realizes that he goofed and then never touches the ball after the initial push, it can't be called a dribble, imo. I know the wording of the rule book makes this seem to be not right, but I think it's another case of bad wording. Clearly, a dribble is a way to move legally with the ball, and if someone doesn't continue to move "with" the ball, but relinquishes control, how can it be a dribble?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

There is a specific case where A1 intends to pass the ball, but A2 runs away and A1 goes and recovers the ball (after it bounces. The "pass" becones a "dribble."

It seems to me (and this is just an opinion) that the opposite is also true -- a "dribble" can become a "pass".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

2) No. How do you know it wasn't a pass?

This, like so many others, is a judgment call. If, in my judgment, it is clearly a dribble when pushed to the floor, that is when it is a violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

How come you're changing your tune now? Going back to the post of yours above that I answered (again), you stated that it was an "immediate violation". Now you're advocating letting the play unfold? How can you know for sure which is which unless you let the play unfold?

How can you explain away the language of rule 4-31, which defines a "pass"? In both the definitions of a "dribble" and a "pass", the ball is thrown or batted.

You need to make up your mind.

Not changing my tune at all. I merely acknowledged the idea that a move could appear to be one thing but could dissolve into something else. If this is the case, hold the whistle. But, in my opinion, the vast majority of times that a player puts the ball on the floor to start a dribble, it is virtually unmistakable.

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

This is simply not true. Even if it's obvious that the player intends to dribble ( for example, bounce is right next to his foot and it bounces straight back up) if he realizes that he goofed and then never touches the ball after the initial push, it can't be called a dribble, imo. I know the wording of the rule book makes this seem to be not right, but I think it's another case of bad wording. Clearly, a dribble is a way to move legally with the ball, and if someone doesn't continue to move "with" the ball, but relinquishes control, how can it be a dribble?

Why not?

4-15-4: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player.......who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a dribble. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment. In the example above you said it was obvious the player intended to dribble. That does it for me. Suppose A1 and A2 have a two on none fast break. A1 picks up his dribble in the lane and throws a high arching pass toward the corner, anticipating A2 will spot up for 3. Meanwhile A2 has stopped and headed back to play defense, anticipating A1 shooting a layup. A1 hustles after the ball and manages to grab it before it goes out of bounds. Is this a violation? How do you know it wasn't a really bad shot?

[just another ref]

Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There is a specific case where A1 intends to pass the ball, but A2 runs away and A1 goes and recovers the ball (after it bounces. The "pass" becomes a "dribble."

It seems to me (and this is just an opinion) that the opposite is also true -- a "dribble" can become a "pass".

If you can describe a specific case of this, I'd be glad to kick it around.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are there cases where it is uncertain what A1's intention is when he releases the ball? Certainly there could be, in which case one might wait a little longer to let the play unfold. But there are also case when it is quite obvious that when A1 releases the ball it is indeed a dribble, nothing else, and if he has no dribble, when this ball hits the floor it is a violation. I'm done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
There is a specific case where A1 intends to pass the ball, but A2 runs away and A1 goes and recovers the ball (after it bounces. The "pass" becomes a "dribble."

It seems to me (and this is just an opinion) that the opposite is also true -- a "dribble" can become a "pass".

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you can describe a specific case of this, I'd be glad to kick it around.

I quoted the NFHS ruling(interp) to which bob refers, in which A1 intends to throw a pass, but it turns into a dribble, way back in post #16 of this thread.

As for the second part, there is strong evidence in the case book that the player does indeed need to be the first to touch the ball after it bounces for the action to constitute a dribble and thus a violation. Presumably, in either of the cases below, if the player simply left the ball alone after it hit the floor, then a teammate could come along and grab it. The action would turn into a legal pass, and no violation should be called.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.44.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-15-4: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player.......who bats or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a dribble. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment.

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a pass if the ball goes to another player. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment.

The only "judgment" needed is to wait and see what happens, and then make the call by the rules.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4-15-3: The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A single push to the floor, by definition, constitutes a pass if the ball goes to another player. It is unnecessary for anything else to happen. Judgment.

The only "judgment" needed is to wait and see what happens, and then make the call by the rules.

Mis-calling an adjudged illegal dribble on the two-handed bounce pass before the player retouches the ball would not be so different from mis-calling traveling when a player lifts the pivot foot before the pivot foot retouches.