Bounce pass to self

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As you state a power dribble is a legal move, but that is because the bouncing of the ball with both hands comes at the start of the dribble, not at the end of it. I can't think of any situation in which it would be legal to bounce the ball with two hands at the end of a dribble.

Boolsh!t!

If you can find a rule anywhere that states it's illegal to end a dribble by bouncing it with both hands, cite it. It's legal to bounce the ball with both hands both at the start AND the end of a dribble.

Bouncing the ball with both hands legally ends a dribble, as per NFHHS rule 4-15-4(c). It's illegal to be the first player to touch the ball again after it's been bounced with both hands, as per NFHS rule 9-5.

Your linguistic gobblydegook sureashell is no help at all in trying to help newer officials understand the rule.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you can find a rule anywhere that states it's illegal to end a dribble by bouncing it with both hands, cite it. It's legal to bounce the ball with both hands both at the start AND the end of a dribble.

NF 4-15-4(c) states the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches (not bounces) the ball with both hands.

So if the ball is coming up on a dribble bounce and the player touches both hands to the ball, the dribble ends at that point. If the result of that touching with both hands is that the ball returns to the floor, then you have an illegal dribble (unless it's a fumble). Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF 4-15-4(c) states the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches (not bounces) the ball with both hands.

So if the ball is coming up on a dribble bounce and the player touches both hands to the ball, the dribble ends at that point. If the result of that touching with both hands is that the ball returns to the floor, then you have an illegal dribble (unless it's a fumble). Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

I'm confused. I thought it was the subsquent touch by the player last touching the ball with both hands that created the illegal dribble. So, after a two hand grab ends his/her dribble, A1 can't make a two-handed bounce pass to A2? I'm not seeing that in the rules, help please?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I'm confused. I thought it was the subsquent touch by the player last touching the ball with both hands that created the illegal dribble. So, after a two hand grab ends his/her dribble, A1 can't make a two-handed bounce pass to A2? I'm not seeing that in the rules, help please?

If, after catching or touching the ball with both hands, A1 dribbles again (regardless of whether that touch starts the dribble or whether, after catching the ball from his dribble he starts another one) it's an illegal dribble. However, if after touching (or catching) the ball with both hands, he passes (bounce or otherwise), it is not a violation.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

if after touching (or catching) the ball with both hands, he passes (bounce or otherwise), it is not a violation.

I agree. So when you wrote this:

Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

you were just kidding around?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

NF 4-15-4(c) states the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches (not bounces) the ball with both hands.

So if the ball is coming up on a dribble bounce and the player touches both hands to the ball, the dribble ends at that point. If the result of that touching with both hands is that the ball returns to the floor, then you have an illegal dribble (unless it's a fumble). Conclusion: it is not legal to bounce the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble.

Please tell me that you're not serious. Are you really going to call an illegal second dribble if a player bounce-passes the ball to another player at the end of a dribble

The act of touching the ball with both hands ends a dribble but that act by itself is not illegal. There are no restrictions as to how you touch the ball with both hands. If you think differently, then cite a rule.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you really going to call an illegal second dribble if a player bounce-passes the ball to another player at the end of a dribble

Thanks for being the third person to make this point. Old and slooooooooowwwwwwwww.

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong. As I stated in my follow-up, obviously you can start a bounce pass with both hands after you have picked up your dribble.

I hope that's clear now.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Guys - I took JRs post about bouncing the ball with both hands at the end of a dribble to imply you could dribble with both hands again for your "final" dribble, not that you could start a bounce pass. That was what I was addressing as being wrong.

You're not dribbling again though if you never touch the ball again after 2-hand bouncing it to end your dribble.

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble. Well, that's just not true. You can have a bounce pass, fumble, bounce the ball hard and then run past it, leaving it for a trailer to pick up, etc. If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. To decide which is which, you have to wait until you see the result of the 2-handed bounce. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble. I also can't think of any definitive rule that states that it is a violation either.

To call the play properly, all I'm saying is that you have to wait and see what happens after the ball is 2-handedly bounced.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Thanks for being the third person to make this point. Old and slooooooooowwwwwwwww.

Hell, in my prime, I was young and slooooooooooow. I never was a Speedy Gonzalez like that Chuck Whatisname that used to post here.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I know exactly what you were reading into it, Mark---the exact same thing that Nevada was trying to suggest. According to NFHS rule 4-15-1, one of the ways that you can start a dribble is by bouncing it to the floor with both hands. Unfortunately, to call it the way that you and Nevada are suggesting, you have to assume that ALL 2-handed bounces to the floor are the start of a dribble.

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

What I was reading into it was this: I thought you meant that the last dribble could be with two hands without a violation.

Nope, I never said that. I said that the last dribble ended when it was touched with two hands. Whether there was a violation or not depends strictly on what happens after the last dribble ends. Make sense?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Boolsh!t!

If you can find a rule anywhere that states it's illegal to end a dribble by bouncing it with both hands, cite it. It's legal to bounce the ball with both hands both at the start AND the end of a dribble.

Bouncing the ball with both hands legally ends a dribble, as per NFHHS rule 4-15-4(c). It's illegal to be the first player to touch the ball again after it's been bounced with both hands, as per NFHS rule 9-5.

Your linguistic gobblydegook sureashell is no help at all in trying to help newer officials understand the rule.

The words "linguistic gobblydegook" have to apply to you in this case, not me. As Padgett already wrote, the rule says "touches the ball with both hands", not "bounces".
What you are calling bouncing the ball with both hands "at the end" of a dribble truly takes place "AFTER" the end of the dribble.

Hopefully, that will clear this up for all those newer officials.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As Padgett already wrote, the rule says "touches the ball with both hands", not "bounces".
What you are calling bouncing the ball with both hands "at the end" of a dribble truly takes place "AFTER" the end of the dribble.

I repeat---complete and utter boolsh!t.

If your nonsense was true, a dribbler couldn't throw a bounce pass without violating.

Stoopid monkey......

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you call immediate violations on those as soon as the dribbler pushes the ball to the floor, you will look like an idiot if it does turn out to be a bounce pass. You will also have no rules backing to make that call. If the player doing so does not touch the ball again, I don't know how anyone can say with certainty that it is a second illegal dribble.

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?