Bounce pass to self

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

To call the play properly, all I'm saying is that you have to wait and see what happens after the ball is 2-handedly bounced.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, I never said that. I said that the last dribble ended when it was touched with two hands. Whether there was a violation or not depends strictly on what happens after the last dribble ends. Make sense?

Yep, looks like you agree. BTW the bold was even JR's, not mine.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your nonsense was true, a dribbler couldn't throw a bounce pass without violating.

Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Picture this. Last second thing. Team A clears a side for star player to take the last shot. He receives a pass on the wing, takes a couple of dribbles, and stops to let time wind down. BUT, he forgets that he has no dribble left. (it happens)
When he head fakes his guy and puts the ball on the floor to start his move, is this not an immediate violation? It was not a fumble. He is the only one on his team on this whole side of the floor, so it is not a pass. So by definition 4-15-4
would this not be a violation when he "pushes the ball to the floor once" whether he subsequently touches it or not?

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Dribbler's don't throw bounce passes, you know that. Players throw bounce passes either before dribbling or after ending a dribble.

Exactly! And now maybe you can explain why you are going to call a violation on someone who just legally threw a damn bounce pass after ending their dribble. If you make that call before you see the the result of the complete play, that's exactly what you're doing. And good luck with that.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-15-4 states that the dribble ended. It's got nothing to do with a violation that occurs after that. Rule 9-5 covers the violation.

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Now my head hurts, please make him stop.....

Simple remedy. Don't try to understand anything that you don't have any knowledge at all about....like actual rules.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Bouncing the ball with both hands legally ends a dribble, as per NFHHS rule 4-15-4(c). It's illegal to be the first player to touch the ball again after it's been bounced with both hands, as per NFHS rule 9-5.

Your linguistic gobblydegook sureashell is no help at all in trying to help newer officials understand the rule.

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

As far as your comment about helping or not helping newer officials understand the rules. You can add yourself to this list because what you just stated sureashell ain't clear. This whole double dribble topic ain't clear unless of course you think mud is clear. Likewise, though a lot of new officials frequent this site, the majority of interaction here is with veteran officials. Give it a rest!

Rule 4-15-4c: says the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands. This is not clear but I can now reason that you can start a dribble with 2 hands and end a dribbler with 2 hands, and you can start/end a dribble with 2 hands as in the power dribble move, but you cannot dribble down the court with 2 hands continuously. That was my point.

Great discussion, I've learned a lot here, this forum as it's best. Though I think this is a great forum for new officials to come and ask questions to learn. I think it is priceless for the veteran official, you just like some have said (Rainmaker) here, have to weigh thru a lot of bullsh!t to get the correct answer.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

Wrong. As said previously, you fail to comprehend what I posted, as well as what the rule actually is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

But, you can't go "by the bold alone." yOu have to read in context.

For example, I could have bolded "dribble is illegal" in your sentence.

Then, I could write -- going by the bold part alone, all dribbles are illegal. But, I won't, because that would be wrong.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If he pushes the ball to the floor once and then runs away from it, are you going to call that an illegal dribble also under 9-5? Iow, if he just drops the ball without touching it again, are you going to call that an illegal dribble? Or are you going to wait and see the result of the play?

Gee, call me silly but if I'm going to call an illegal dribble, I'm going to make sure that there actually was a dribble. That's just me though. You and Nevada can call it any way you want. And good luck to both of you.

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Old School

Going by this statement in bold alone, then the power dribble is illegal, the start and stop of a two-handed dribble is illegal.

As far as your comment about helping or not helping newer officials understand the rules. You can add yourself to this list because what you just stated sureashell ain't clear. This whole double dribble topic ain't clear unless of course you think mud is clear. Likewise, though a lot of new officials frequent this site, the majority of interaction here is with veteran officials. Give it a rest!

Rule 4-15-4c: says the dribble ends when the dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands. This is not clear but I can now reason that you can start a dribble with 2 hands and end a dribbler with 2 hands, and you can start/end a dribble with 2 hands as in the power dribble move, but you cannot dribble down the court with 2 hands continuously. That was my point.

Great discussion, I've learned a lot here, this forum as it's best. Though I think this is a great forum for new officials to come and ask questions to learn. I think it is priceless for the veteran official, you just like some have said (Rainmaker) here, have to weigh thru a lot of bullsh!t to get the correct answer.

The "power dribble" is legal if you break it down. A1 pushes the ball to the floor with two hands. This is the start of a dribble and it doesn't matter if A1 uses one hand or two. If A1 touches the ball again, with two hands, this ends the dribble. Move to the basket completes the play. Don't be confused by the fact that the dribble started legally by pushing the ball to the floor with two hands.

BTW and I really hate to say this, but your BS is the only BS that I consider to be alot of BS that I have to weigh through, JMO.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by BLydic

BTW and I really hate to say this, but your BS is the only BS that I consider to be alot of BS that I have to weigh through, JMO.

Then you have your personal blinders on. BS is BS, no matter where it comes from, and if you think I'm the only one out here serving up BS, then I really hate to tell you, you are truly blind, JMO.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Old School

Then you have your personal blinders on. BS is BS, no matter where it comes from, and if you think I'm the only one out here serving up BS, then I really hate to tell you, you are truly blind, JMO.

I never said you were the only one serving up BS. Nothing personal either, JMO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm the only one out here serving up BS

Just thought I'd provide an example of what happens when you pull a quote completely out of context and try to use it to make a point.

JR has been more than clear when you put all his posts in here together, of course so has Nevada.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

How do you know if it's a dribble? You don't know until it comes up. How many drop passes look like dribbles? How many passes turn into dribbles? Just wait the split second it takes for the ball to come back up and hit the bouncer's hand before calling the violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

By definition, a dribble is when the ball is pushed to the floor. Therefore, in my judgment, if the first push to the floor is a dribble, not a drop, not a bounce pass, that is when the violation occurs, not on a second touch. What if the defender picks his pocket after the ball is first pushed to the floor, does this save a violation? I think not.

According to R4-15-3, a dribble starts when a player pushes, throws or bats the ball to the floor. And, according to R4-31, a pass occurs when a player throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player. He can also legally throw or bat the ball to the floor at the start of the pass too. How do you differentiate between the throw or bat that start both a dribble and a pass then? Answer- you and Nevada don't. You both say that throw or bat has to be a second dribble and you call a violation.

If you can determine instantly the split-second that a ball leaves the player's hands after he's ended his dribble that his throw or bat is actually a dribble and not a pass, you're a helluva lot better official than I am. Dare I say....you're almost god-like.

Note that a two-handed bounce pass and a two-handed power dribble by definition are started exactly the same way.

I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over.You and Nevada call it any way you want. I'd just like to be there the first time that a player does pass the ball and you two call that pass an illegal dribble.