Bounce pass to self

[Nevadaref]

There have been so many things written in this thread that are incorrect that it makes my head hurt.

First to answer the question of the OP. Yes, you are right, that what Todd66 called an "air dribble" is illegal. He is not correct when saying that it is legal. Case Book play 4.15.4 Situation E specifies this. (BTW, Adam, please note that this is NOT traveling. It is an illegal dribble.)

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

For your bounce pass scenario all that you need to see is this NFHS interp from a couple of seasons ago.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling.
RULING:
Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

First to answer the question of the OP. Yes, you are right, that what Todd66 called an "air dribble" is illegal. He is not correct when saying that it is legal. Case Book play 4.15.4 Situation E specifies this. (BTW, Adam, please note that this is NOT traveling. It is an illegal dribble.)

Sorry to make your head hurt.
That said, I thought it might be an illegal dribble. I just wasn't sure. Frankly, it makes more sense as traveling to me. :shrug:

[Nevadaref]

But to deem this traveling would not be in line with the rules as written because as BktBallRef, our traveling and backcourt guru, has pointed out many times, in order to travel a player must be "holding the ball" as stated in 4-44, with one exception. (The one exception is the final sentence of 4.44.5 SitB.)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

But to deem this traveling would not be in line with the rules as written because as BktBallRef, our traveling and backcourt guru, has pointed out many times, in order to travel a player must be "holding the ball" as stated in 4-44, with one exception. (The one exception is the final sentence of 4.44.5 SitB.)

That's a fair enough point. It doesn't make sense as dribbling, either, because it's not a dribble. It doesn't hit the floor; of course, it is an "illegal" dribble.
Honestly, neither one makes a lot of sense. The key is knowing it's illegal and making a call. Look like you know what you're doing and head the other way. More experienced (okay, more knowledgable) officials will know to call this an illegal dribble rather than a false start, but the biggest thing is to call the violation.

[mick]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay I'm going to try to summarize the various possibilities. Let's discuss them by number, okay? Rather than starting nine different threads, or getting confused about who's addressing which sitch.

1. A1 is holding the ball. A1 has used his dribble. A1 can't do much of anything that involves letting go of the ball and then touching it again.

Incorrect.
Allowed to fumble and recover.

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

3. A1 is holding the ball. A2 hasn't used his dribble. A1 can toss the ball over B1's head, round around B1, allow the ball to hit the floor, and then continue a dribble as long as the touch behind B1 doesn't involve a hold, but is only a dribble.

What about A3, A4 and A5. They haven't used their dribble either.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay I'm going to try to summarize the various possibilities. Let's discuss them by number, okay? Rather than starting nine different threads, or getting confused about who's addressing which sitch.

1. A1 is holding the ball. A1 has used his dribble. A1 can't do much of anything that involves letting go of the ball and then touching it again.

2. A1 is holding the ball. A1 hasn't used his dribble. A1 can toss the ball over B1's head, run around B1 and catch the ball in a hold (ie not re-release it). as long as he doesn't move his feet after he catches it.

3. A1 is holding the ball. A2 hasn't used his dribble. A1 can toss the ball over B1's head, round around B1, allow the ball to hit the floor, and then continue a dribble as long as the touch behind B1 doesn't involve a hold, but is only a dribble.

4. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can give the ball a good hard push to the floor so that it bounces very high. A1 can then sort of bat it over B1's head, without holding, allow it to bounce behind B1, run around B1 and continue dribbling. (that is, if B1 is dull-witted enough to let the ball make it that far!).

5. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can begin the same maneuver as in #4, allow the ball to bounce behind B1, and then catch the ball behind B1 provided A1 doesn't take any more steps after catching the ball.

6. A1 is dribbling toward B1. A1 can begin the same maneuver as in #4, but can not catch the ball after the bat but before the ball hits the floor behind B1. This would be an illegal dribble, right?

#2 is the only one I'm not sure about, but I can't figure out why or why not it would or wouldn't be legal?

#1 and #2 legal: If the official deems it as a shot attempt.
#3 legal: but what does A2 have to do with it? (Sam beat me to it...)
#4,5,6: does need a dull witted defender but #6 sounds illegal (4,5 legal)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

#1 and #2 legal: If the official deems it as a shot attempt.
#3 legal: but what does A2 have to do with it? (Sam beat me to it...)
#4,5,6: does need a dull witted defender but #6 sounds illegal (4,5 legal)

Coach, #2 is illegal.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Coach, #2 is illegal.

In the "spirit and intent" of the thread, it's illegal.

By rule, there is the possibility that #2 could be deemed as a shot attempt. So overall, saying it is always illegal, is wrong.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by CoachP

In the "spirit and intent" of the thread, it's illegal.

By rule, there is the possibility that #2 could be deemed as a shot attempt. So overall, saying it is always illegal, is wrong.

Say what? what official will deem this a shot attempt if he or she observe the intent of the player?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

What about A3, A4 and A5. They haven't used their dribble either.

Sheez... someday I'll learn to type. Editted to fix.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by mick

Incorrect.
Allowed to fumble and recover.

Yea, but I don't think of fumbling as something that someone does. It's something that happens to ya. I mean, you're not just standing there, and you just sort of fumble. I mean I do, but that's why I don't play. I was thinking of something planned and intentional.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Sheez... someday I'll learn to type. Editted to fix.

Maybe some day you'll learn to spell too.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by CoachP

By rule, there is the possibility that #2 could be deemed as a shot attempt. So overall, saying it is always illegal, is wrong.

Coach, the sort of general rule is that if something isn't specifically written into a case or sitch, then it's not part of the consideration. Since nothing was said here about a basket, or backboard or anything else regarding a shot, it couldn't possibly be a shot.

I mean, you're right, if it looked like it was supposed to be a shot, it's legal. But then it would have been written into the case.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CoachP

#1 and #2 legal: If the official deems it as a shot attempt.
#3 legal: but what does A2 have to do with it? (Sam beat me to it...)
#4,5,6: does need a dull witted defender but #6 sounds illegal (4,5 legal)

Coach,
These two case plays provide the answers to all of the questions posed.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1's foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball. (9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION E: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but an illegal dribble violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble. (9-5)

In #1 A1 could fumble and retrieve as stated in 4.15.4 SitD part (d).
#2 is an illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit E part (b).
#3 since the ball is allowed to strike the floor, this is a legal dribble per 4-15-3 and the converse of the ruling in 4.15.4 Sit E part (b).
#4 is legal per the converse of 4.15.4 Sit D part (a) as the dribbler did not touch the ball twice before it struck the floor.
#5 is the same as number four, but, of course, the player is allowed to pivot after ending the dribble.
#6 illegal dribble per 4.15.4 Sit D part (a).