gps-5

[112448]

Eli -

thanks a ton for the clarification on the clock situation and the advice to put one back on the shot and game clocks if you are very comfortable knowing your count was at 9.

Jake

[Dennis Flannery]

I believe that crew mis heard what was said to him by these college refs. At the various camps that I have go to, they say that if the shoot clock is at 24, then you must have a 10 second violation. The reasoning is that 25 is anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9, and that is not a full 10 seconds since you start at 35.0. This is from 3 different Division 1 assignors.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
I believe that crew mis heard what was said to him by these college refs. At the various camps that I have go to, they say that if the shoot clock is at 24, then you must have a 10 second violation. The reasoning is that 25 is anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9, and that is not a full 10 seconds since you start at 35.0. This is from 3 different Division 1 assignors.

Based on the post from Eli and the experience that I've had, I would have to disagree. Using the information above, a team would have 35.9 seconds to shoot. If the clock has anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9 when it'a showing 25 then it would have anywhere from 35.9 to 35.1 when 35 is showing. We know that's not true.

Pasted below is part of Eli's reply that correctly explains how a shot clock works.

Originally posted by eroe39
...When the shot clock reads 35 it is on 35 from 35.0 to 34.1. For example, the shot clock does not start on 35.9 every time we get a new shot clock. When the shot clock reads 25 it is on 25 from 25.0 until 24.1. When the shot clock is on 1 it is on 1 from 1.0 to 0.1. When the shot clock reads 0 it is on 0. According to what you stated earlier than if the shot clock is at 0 than it could actually be at 0.9 which is not true because the horn sounds at 0.

3 different D1 assignors can be wrong.

[Dennis Flannery]

BktBallRef, you didn't read my post all of the way. I stated in it that the shoot clock starts at 35.0 and goes down from there. so like I said, and the D1 assignors have said, if the clock shows 24 then you have a 10 second violation. NOT when the clock shows 25.

[BktBallRef]

Dennis, look at what you stated and how it would apply to other times.

You said that when the clock read 25, there's actually 25.1 to 25.9 seconds on the clock.

If that's true, then when the clock reads 35, there would have to be 35.1 to 35.9 seconds on the clock.

Also, if there's 25.1 to 25.9 on the clock, what does the clock show when they're are actually 25.0 seconds on the clock? You're saying that the clock shows 26 when there's 26.0 on the clock but it shows 24 when there's actually 25.0 on the clock. That doesn't make sense.

These clocks aren't soley 35 second clocks. The clock registers the time the same at 35 as it does at 25. If the clock is at 35.0 seconds when it's displaying 35, then it's at 25.0 seconds when it's displaying 25. It can't work any other way. The only way it can work is the way Eli stated.

The clock stays at 35 until it ticks down to 34.1, then it ticks to 34.0 and the display shows 34. It's that simple.

BTW, NBA officials call an 8 seconds BC violation at 16 seconds, not 15 seconds. The clocks are the same as the college shot clocks.

[Hawks Coach]

Tony is right on this one, Dennis. If it was the way you state it, as soon as someone starts the 35 sec clock, it would immediately read 34. It takes a second for this to occur. Also, when the clock reads zero, it does not take .99 seconds for the horn to blow - it may have a slight delay due to the equipment, but it is not a full second. I am not sure on the rule, but I believe that ball in hand with clock reading zero is violation, so 0 seconds is considered 0.0, not 0.9 seconds.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tony is right on this one, Dennis. If it was the way you state it, as soon as someone starts the 35 sec clock, it would immediately read 34. It takes a second for this to occur. Also, when the clock reads zero, it does not take .99 seconds for the horn to blow - it may have a slight delay due to the equipment, but it is not a full second. I am not sure on the rule, but I believe that ball in hand with clock reading zero is violation, so 0 seconds is considered 0.0, not 0.9 seconds.

No. In NF and NCAA rules, if any sort of timing device shows 0.0 or 0 and there has been no horn (assuming the horn is working correctly), that time period has NOT ended.

In NBA, if shot clock shows 0 or game shows (or is left with after mandated deductions) 0.0, that period is over.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

No. In NF and NCAA rules, if any sort of timing device shows 0.0 or 0 and there has been no horn (assuming the horn is working correctly), that time period has NOT ended.

While it's true that it's not a shot clock violation until the horn sounds, that doesn't mean that the clock isn't at 0.0.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
While it's true that it's not a shot clock violation until the horn sounds, that doesn't mean that the clock isn't at 0.0.

Did I say that? Man, I must really be losing it.

[Hawks Coach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
No. In NF and NCAA rules, if any sort of timing device shows 0.0 or 0 and there has been no horn (assuming the horn is working correctly), that time period has NOT ended.

In NBA, if shot clock shows 0 or game shows (or is left with after mandated deductions) 0.0, that period is over.

Thanks Mark - I knew that was true for NF and thought it was true for NCAA with game clock - wasn't sure about shot clocks.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Did I say that? Man, I must really be losing it.

No, you made a good point. I was just clarifying.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Based on the post from Eli and the experience that I've had, I would have to disagree. Using the information above, a team would have 35.9 seconds to shoot. If the clock has anywhere from 25.1 to 25.9 when it'a showing 25 then it would have anywhere from 35.9 to 35.1 when 35 is showing. We know that's not true.

Tony -- that would be true if the clock "Ran down" to 35 seconds (indicated). But, when it's SET to 35 seconds, it's set to exactly 35.0.

Look at the game clock, for example, and look at minutes and seconds, instead of seconds and tenths. It's set to 8:00. It "immediately" changes to 7:59. When it gets to 4:xx, it doesn't mean 4 minutes have elapsed -- just the contrary, it means that 4 minutes haven't yet elapsed. IF the seconds weren't displayed, we couldn't have a "4 minute violation" until the clock read 3.

(We need someone to test all this out with a shot clock -- and it's possible that different brands / models work differently -- I know that game clocks do. We need to start it and stop it as quickly as possible -- did it stay at 35, or change to 34? Counting down with the clock, does the horn sound as soon as we get to 0, or does the horn wait until we get to -1?)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Tony -- that would be true if the clock "Ran down" to 35 seconds (indicated). But, when it's SET to 35 seconds, it's set to exactly 35.0.

Bob, that's exactly my point. I'm simply pointing out how the clock would work if it worked as Dennis stated.

If the shot clock is at 35.0 when 35 is displayed, then it's at 25.0 when 25 is displayed. That's simply common sense and it's consistent. It doesn't make sense to say the clock is at 35.0 when 35 is displayed but it's not at 25.0 until 24 is displayed. This is what Dennis is saying when he says the clock is at 25.1 to 25.9 when it displays 25.

Look at the game clock, for example, and look at minutes and seconds, instead of seconds and tenths. It's set to 8:00. It "immediately" changes to 7:59. When it gets to 4:xx, it doesn't mean 4 minutes have elapsed -- just the contrary, it means that 4 minutes haven't yet elapsed. IF the seconds weren't displayed, we couldn't have a "4 minute violation" until the clock read 3..

Exactly, but game clocks work differently than shot clocks. Most game clocks now have tenths. So, when the clock says 8:00, it's actually at 8:00.0. Shot clocks don't reflect tenths.

(We need someone to test all this out with a shot clock -- and it's possible that different brands / models work differently -- I know that game clocks do. We need to start it and stop it as quickly as possible -- did it stay at 35, or change to 34? Counting down with the clock, does the horn sound as soon as we get to 0, or does the horn wait until we get to -1?)

I have. Last year, at a girls' AAU tourney, which uses NCAA Women's rules, we tested a Daktronics shot clock and a Fair-Play shot clock. In both cases, when the clocks were started, one second passed before the clock ticked down from 30 to 29. Also, as soon as the clock reached 0, the horn sounded.

I hope that helps clear it up.

[paulis]

If we can get this settled we can then decide if 2000 or 2001 is the first year of the millenium.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by paulis
If we can get this settled we can then decide if 2000 or 2001 is the first year of the millenium.

That's an easy one - 2001; Q.E.D.