gps-5

[crew]

this is a play that was submitted on hoopsref.com.
the offensive team shoots a shot it hits the rim. defensive team gets the rebound/possession with a new 35. a1 now tries to dribble through defense, and b1 taps the ball away from a1(still team control) a1 then dives on the ball to prevent a tie up and calls for timeout. you grant the time out(20 sec) to team a. after you called the timeout you notice the shotclock is on 25. what would you do.

ps. those of you who have already posted on hoops please do not post.

[bigwhistle]

I would grant the "30 second....not 20 second time out and let Team A have the ball out of bounds.

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the point of the play was that the ball is still in Team A's backcourt and 10 seconds have elapsed off of the shot clock.

Many collegiate officials use the shot clock as the indicator of when the 10 second violation occurs, going so far as to tell the shot clock operator in pre game to be slow to start and reset since they (the officials) will not be doing an actual count, but looking at the shot clock for the violation indicator. However, by any case book play, the shot clock is not the official indicator as to whether or not a violation has occurred.

Any official who deals with shot clocks will have to admit that way too often the shot clock is not run properly (i.e. by the time the ball is inbounded there are only 33 since it was reset on the make, etc.)

I go by the count that I have.

Crew....this may not be the answer you are looking for, and I do understand your logic...I just don't agree with it. Plus, since I work women's college, we don't care how long they stay in the back court

[crew]

i sataed in the thread that the team got the rebound with a new 35, hence correct start on clock.

[hooters]

shot clock violation.

[stripes]

No shot clock violation. The full 10 sec has not elapsed (or the SC would read 24). Grant the TO and team A will have 10 more sec to cross the division line.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by hooters
shot clock violation.

How is this a shot clock violation? We have 25 seconds left to go til we get there.

[bigwhistle]

Coach,

Since the original post stated that the clock reset to 35, I believe that we must go under the assumption that crew was talking about a men's game, and the rules that govern it.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
Coach,

Since the original post stated that the clock reset to 35, I believe that we must go under the assumption that crew was talking about a men's game, and the rules that govern it.

I understand that we are dealing with the men's game, because of the 35 second clock. What I do not understand is how we get a shot clock violation with 25 seconds left on that clock, men's or women's rules.

[Mark Dexter]

I say no 10-second violation.
First, the clock may not have been reset perfectly with gaining control.
Second, you go by the count - the clock is not allowed to "reset" the count.
Third, depending on the type of clock, anywhere from 9 to 11 seconds, exclusive, may have gone off the clock.
Fourth, because you looked after the timeout, you have no way of knowing if, for example, you granted timeout at 26 left and one tick ran off the clock.

I understand that some college supervisors say to call the 10 second violation based solely on seeing "25" but I would not do that in this case.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I say no 10-second violation.
First, the clock may not have been reset perfectly with gaining control.
Second, you go by the count - the clock is not allowed to "reset" the count.
Third, depending on the type of clock, anywhere from 9 to 11 seconds, exclusive, may have gone off the clock.
Fourth, because you looked after the timeout, you have no way of knowing if, for example, you granted timeout at 26 left and one tick ran off the clock.

I understand that some college supervisors say to call the 10 second violation based solely on seeing "25" but I would not do that in this case.

If you worked their conference, you would.

Under NCAA rules, the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched inbounds, not when team control is established. They are instructed to use the shot clock in the NCAA and the NBA. At least this is the way that Joe Forte explained it. 10 second violation.

[112448]

If you worked their conference, you would.

Under NCAA rules, the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched inbounds, not when team control is established. They are instructed to use the shot clock in the NCAA and the NBA. At least this is the way that Joe Forte explained it. 10 second violation. [/B]

Bball Ref-

The original post was refering to a missed shot and rebound, therefor you DO NOT have a reset until the rebounding team gains possession. The situation to which you refer, i.e., the shot clock starting when it is touched inbounds, occurs on throw-in situations. See the rules reference below:

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."

As far as the original question goes...i would grant the 30-SECOND time out and be prepared to explain to the coach, prior to leaving the floor for the half or during the next extended opportunity (maybe a media time-out) why i didn't have a 10-second violation.

"My count was on 9 coach. When the clock shows 25, there is between 25.9 and 25.0 seconds left on the shot clock. Since he called a time out with 25 still showing and MY COUNT was at 9, i have to honor the time out request."

i'd then let the coach get the last little jab in and walk away.

jake

[Mark Dexter]

Simplest explaination to me would be to say that the timeout was requested and granted before ten seconds were reached.

[BktBallRef]

Jake,

I guess you need to re-read my post. My reply to Mark had nothing to do with the original post. I was replying to the comment below, which I interpreted as a 10 second count. Otherwise, he wouldn't even be discussing that the supervisor would want a 10 second count.

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I understand that some college supervisors say to call the 10 second violation based solely on seeing "25" but I would not do that in this case.

Again, the answer that I posted came from NBA and former NCAA official Joe Forte. "Under NCAA rules, the 10 second count starts when the ball is touched inbounds, not when team control is established. They are instructed to use the shot clock in the NCAA and the NBA. "

And, if you too tell the coach that your count was at 9, then you and Mark won't be working if the conference supervisor wants to called by the shot clock.

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Simplest explaination to me would be to say that the timeout was requested and granted before ten seconds were reached.

I said the same thing but Joe replied that it doesn't work that way. The shot clock is what works, not your count.

[112448]

Bball Ref - i understand that you are quoting Joe Forte. i understand that he works in the NBA, but please understand that i am quoting the NCAA RULE BOOK!!

2002 NCAA Rules 2-13-5 found on BR-42
"Start the timing device when a player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in or WHEN A TEAM INITIALLY GAINS POSSESSION from a jump ball, an unsuccessfl try for goal or a loose ball."


If the quote you attribute to Mr. Forte is indeed correct - then he is just wrong about the rule. I fully understand the concept of when in Rome and am prepared to officiate a certain way if that is the way my assignor and the coaches expect the game to be called, but YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE that the Rule is different from the quote you attribute to Mr. Forte.

And furthermore, i have REREAD your post and it has everything to do with the original post by Crew. Mark Dexter was answering the original post - SO by responding to Mr. Dexter, you were responding to the original post.

Read the rule. There is NO QUESTION that by the rule, Mark Dexter and myself DO have a leg to stand on. Read the rule.

and i hope everyone has a great and happy holiday season.

jake

[Mark Dexter]

Jake, first of all, you must understand that situations often quickly change on this board as people submit an extra "what-if" or other complication. Therefore, TH's post back to me could easily deal with a different situation.

Second, while NCAA rules are important, what your conference supervisor says is just as important if you want to keep working that conference. If I was instructed to use the shot clock to time the 10 second count, I would. I was simply unsure if it applied in this case because of the possible lag time (yes, I know that there is no lag time in an NCAA game, but if no one was thinking of the shot clock, something may have run off) either after the whistle or between time out being granted and the ref blowing his/her whistle.