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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 01:14am
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Correctable error???

Cany find my rule boohs and cant get to the NFHS site.. so here is the play. happened last night in a summer league. (not my game)

Team A has ball for throw-in with 1.7 second left to go in a 36-36 ball game.

A1 has ball for throwin. A2 pushes on throw-in before abll is caught inbounds and is called for a foul. Official mistakenly calls it team control and gives Team b for throw-in. Team B throws ball in, buzzer goes off. The scorer notifies the official that there shoold have been a 1&1.

Is this correctable/

I will tell you what they after I figure out the ruling.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 01:23am
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Yes, the error of failing to award merited FTs is still correctable. If by "buzzer goes off" you mean that the period ending horn sounded for the 4th quarter with the score tied at 36, then the first FT gets attempted with the lane cleared and if it successful the game is over, if it is missed then an extra period will be played.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 06:02am
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As Nevada stated, the error is correctable. The actions were part of the 4th period thus requiring the player who got push by to shoot free-throws.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 08:28am
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So was the mistake, calling it team control (an error in judgement),
or not knowing the foul count? What was it the scorer said to make it a 1&1 situation?
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 09:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm
So was the mistake, calling it team control (an error in judgement),
or not knowing the foul count? What was it the scorer said to make it a 1&1 situation?
As I read it - it wasn't an "error in judgement" calling the team control foul, but rather a misapplication of a rule. In NFHS, team control does not exist during a throw-in, so any common fouls that occur by the offense are penalized with whatever bonus FT's are in effect at that time. Therefore, it falls under the correctable error guidelines as "failing to award merited free throws".

If the game was being played under NCAA rules, they would've called it correctly because there is team control during a throw-in.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 10, 2007, 10:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
As I read it - it wasn't an "error in judgement" calling the team control foul, but rather a misapplication of a rule. In NFHS, team control does not exist during a throw-in, so any common fouls that occur by the offense are penalized with whatever bonus FT's are in effect at that time. Therefore, it falls under the correctable error guidelines as "failing to award merited free throws".
There are cases in which "team control" is subject to judgment. For example when one official calls an offensive foul off the ball and there is a try: it is necessary to decide whether the foul was before or after the try. Such a decision cannot be questioned for a correctable error, because it is a judgment call. That's why in FIBA the "team control" punch signal is repeated when reporting the foul, so that it is clear why no free throws will be shot.

In the OP situation I agree that it is a correctable error: the rule clearly states that there is no team control.

In FIBA there is team control during a throw-in, so we wouldn't have shot free throws.

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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 03:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIAm
So was the mistake, calling it team control (an error in judgement),
or not knowing the foul count? What was it the scorer said to make it a 1&1 situation?

The mistake (error) is failure to award a merited free throw.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 10:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
The mistake (error) is failure to award a merited free throw.
How do you know that? The mistake may have been the judgement that it was a team control foul. Kelvin Green will have to answer the "what was the mistake and what did the scorer say that indicates free-throws were missed.


As M&M reads the OP, I agree, but I am still curious about what happened.
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Old Thu May 10, 2007, 11:50pm
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1) it was a misapplication of the rule (team control) and not knowing the number of fouls. I would think that even if this was a misapplication of a rule and then discovered and realized it still could be a failure to award a merited FT... So it was more failure to award a merited free throw.

2) what they did was went to shoot the ft's (before they got an shots off) and had a T on an assistant, had fans come out of the bleachers so they called the game awarded it to the opposing team and ran off the floor...


Now 2 nit picky question on Nevada's post for discussion

1) The buzzer sounded for the fourth quarter and then they ended up shooting FT's for the correctable error. Is this one where the game ends in a tie and the points then count and go into OT or are you shooting for the win with these shots?

Rule 5.6

Art. 2... Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.

There are 4 exceptions and shooting on a correctable error is not one of them....


2) Now I am going to play devil's advocate and ask this question. Specifically related to Rule 5.6 for discussion purposes as well,

If the horn at the end of the fourth quarter has sounded the quarter is over by rule. How can the error be corrected once the quarter is over? If the quarter has ended and the game is over and under what rule would you proceed under to allow the FT's since this is not one of the 4 exceptions to the end of the quarter after the buzzer?
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Old Fri May 11, 2007, 12:27am
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Interesting situation you bring up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
1) The buzzer sounded for the fourth quarter and then they ended up shooting FT's for the correctable error. Is this one where the game ends in a tie and the points then count and go into OT or are you shooting for the win with these shots?
I think they're shooting for the win, so to speak. The only time you would start OT with FTs would be if the 4th quarter had completely ended with the score tied, then a technical foul was assessed. Remember the axiom from exception 3 - "No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next."

Quote:
2) Now I am going to play devil's advocate and ask this question. Specifically related to Rule 5.6 for discussion purposes as well,

If the horn at the end of the fourth quarter has sounded the quarter is over by rule. How can the error be corrected once the quarter is over? If the quarter has ended and the game is over and under what rule would you proceed under to allow the FT's since this is not one of the 4 exceptions to the end of the quarter after the buzzer?
You certainly have a valid argument, but I think I would say that 2-10 takes precedent over 5-6-2. Indirectly, 2-2-4 and 2-5-7 give you some coverage. Also, 2-10-2 simply gives a time limit for correcting a CE based on live ball/dead ball status - NOT an absolute time limit or saying when the quarter/half/game is over (a la football).

Two examples to go along with my thinking:
1. This same situation occurs, but with 1.7 seconds left in the 2nd quarter. At halftime, the scorers are comparing their books and realize that a 1-and-1 should have been shot. I would have the kid shoot the FTs after halftime was done and go from there. (This may be circular logic, though - it's way too late.)
2. Fourth quarter, 1.7 seconds on the clock, when the referee whistles A1 for travelling. The timer is checking out the cheerleaders, so the clock runs down to 0.0 and the horn sounds. I realize this isn't a CE, per se, but you still use 5-10-1 and reset the clock to 1.7 even though 5-6-2 may suggest otherwise.
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Old Fri May 11, 2007, 07:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
Now 2 nit picky question on Nevada's post for discussion

1) The buzzer sounded for the fourth quarter and then they ended up shooting FT's for the correctable error. Is this one where the game ends in a tie and the points then count and go into OT or are you shooting for the win with these shots?

Rule 5.6

Art. 2... Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.

There are 4 exceptions and shooting on a correctable error is not one of them....
Not exactly the same thing, but the principle is the same. The NFHS came out with this interp this past season:

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: The score is tied at the end of regulation time. During the intermission between the fourth quarter and the beginning of the overtime period, the official scorer advises the referee that A1's three-point goal earlier in the fourth quarter was recorded in the scorebook improperly as a two-point goal. The referee verifies the mistake. RULING: The game is over and Team A has won. Since the ball had not yet become live in the overtime period, it need not be played. (2-11-11; 5-3; 5-7-4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
2) Now I am going to play devil's advocate and ask this question. Specifically related to Rule 5.6 for discussion purposes as well,

If the horn at the end of the fourth quarter has sounded the quarter is over by rule. How can the error be corrected once the quarter is over? If the quarter has ended and the game is over and under what rule would you proceed under to allow the FT's since this is not one of the 4 exceptions to the end of the quarter after the buzzer?
Mistakes and errors under 2-10 and 2-11 have priority over 5-6. There is language in the books to that effect.

2.11.10 SITUATION C: The scorer mistakenly credits a field goal by A1 to B1 and Team B in the second quarter. The regulation game ends with the score tied. During a time-out in overtime, the scorer detects the mistake and advises the referee. RULING: The referee will have the mistake corrected. The overtime will continue with the corrected score. Once the ball becomes live in the overtime, the overtime will be played even though a subsequent correction of an error or mistake changes the score. A bookkeeping mistake can be corrected at any time until the final score is approved.

Thus it seems obvious that if the ball has not yet become live in the overtime, the overtime will NOT be played when the correction of an error or mistake changes the score.

Lastly, we have discussed on this forum what to do if the officials discover a correctable error during halftime which occurred near the end of the second quarter and such that the period ending horn created the first dead ball period since the error. We have always said that it was still correctable. I even recall one particular thread in which someone posted a response from the NFHS office, which called the halftime intermission "the longest dead ball period in the game" and said that the error was correctable following the halftime intermission. (Plus JR and I once had a nice "spat" about whether or not to use the AP arrow to begin the third quarter! ) Why can't I find that NFHS response with the search engine? Maybe someone else can. All that I found was the situation posted by KenThree which got locked.
Correactable error

Remember that thread!
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Old Fri May 11, 2007, 08:06am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Mistakes and errors under 2-10 and 2-11 have priority over 5-6.
Agreed.

Quote:
There is language in the books to that effect.

2.11.10 SITUATION C: The scorer mistakenly credits a field goal by A1 to B1 and Team B in the second quarter. The regulation game ends with the score tied. During a time-out in overtime, the scorer detects the mistake and advises the referee. RULING: The referee will have the mistake corrected. The overtime will continue with the corrected score. Once the ball becomes live in the overtime, the overtime will be played even though a subsequent correction of an error or mistake changes the score. A bookkeeping mistake can be corrected at any time until the final score is approved.
Problem is that this example is a "bookkeeping mistake" example, not a true CE. Bookkeeping errors can be corrected at any time until the final score is approved. CEs have a definite time limit.

Quote:
Thus it seems obvious that if the ball has not yet become live in the overtime, the overtime will NOT be played when the correction of an error or mistake changes the score.
While I agree with your conclusion, again, I think this reasoning is flawed for the reasons given above.

Quote:
Lastly, we have discussed on this forum what to do if the officials discover a correctable error during halftime which occurred near the end of the second quarter and such that the period ending horn created the first dead ball period since the error. We have always said that it was still correctable.
Agreed.

Quote:
I even recall one particular thread in which someone posted a response from the NFHS office, which called the halftime intermission "the longest dead ball period in the game"
Could pre-game warmups be considered a dead ball period?
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 14, 2007, 12:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
even though a subsequent correction of an error or mistake changes the score.
The wording explicitly states "correction of an error" and then adds "or mistake", so I contend that this NFHS statement applies to both 2-10 correctable errors as well as 2-11 bookkeeping mistakes. That's my opinion anyway.
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Old Mon May 14, 2007, 12:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dexter
Could pre-game warmups be considered a dead ball period?
It could be considered a dead ball period, but it's not the longest dead ball period "in the game" since the game does not begin until the opening jump ball, or FTs if there is some reason to start the game with FTs instead of a jump ball.
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